017 | Creating an Effective HOA Board & HOA Manager Relationship

Julie Adamen: 0:00

You have to go to these events and you end up networking with people you learn from other people in the classes you take. And as boards, you want your manager to go through continuing education. Now I've had boards say, well, we shouldn't pay for that. If they're in house not working for a management company. Why should we pay for that? I'm like, absolutely. It's a relatively small cost and you will reap the benefits of your managers education and their continuing education. So that's that's I look for involvement in the industry, it does make a difference.

Announcer: 0:29

HOA insights, Common Sense For Common Areas exists to help all 2 million volunteer board members nationwide, have the right information at the right time to make the right decisions for their future. This podcast is sponsored by four companies that care about Board Members Association insights in marketplace, association reserves, community financials, and Kevin Davis Insurance Services. You'll find links to their websites and social media in the show notes.

Robert Nordlund: 1:02

Hi, I'm Robert Norland of association reserves.

Julie Adamen: 1:05

And I'm Julie Adaman, of Adaman Inc. and this is Common Sense

Robert Nordlund: 1:09

For Common Areas. This is episode 17 with regular cohost, Julie Adaman. And I realize, Julie, have we ever allowed you to just say hello and introduce yourself?

Julie Adamen: 1:20

No, you know, I don't think we have. So for people who don't know me, which would probably be a lot of you board members out there. I've been in the community management industry for 35 or six years. I spent the first 10 years actually being a manager and being a management company executive. I had also been a large scale Association manager way back in the day, I managed Palm Valley Country Club in Palm Desert, California. And then in the late 90s, I started the business I have now Adaman Inc and what I do, it's a plethora of things. But I do executive recruiting for onsite managers, typically large scale or high end high rise, but also I work as a consultant to management companies, as well as board members, I have a couple of publications that go out. I also act occasionally as an expert witness, and just just general personnel around the industry also do speaking, I'm an educator, I travel all over the country giving talks to CAI chapters, etc. So I've been around a long time. Yeah, that's

Robert Nordlund: 2:21

right. And that gives you the experience that causes to make sure that you were a regular co host on this and to be able to share of those experiences with our audience. Well, let me before we get started on today's topic, I want to remind everyone to check our episode number 16, or last episode, which was a great discussion with Russell months of community financials about what to look for, and how to use the information that you get in your regular financial reports. And as I was talking to him, I was thinking about that line from Alice in Wonderland is being spoken by the Cheshire Cat, who said, If you don't know where you're going, any road will take you there, because you need to know your numbers in order to be able to get successfully to the future. So back to today's episode. Last time we spoke with Julie Episode 12, the conversation was about the tone that you set at your community association. And that has to do with the the words you choose phraseology, how you handle your communications can either lift the owners, or tear them down. So that's important. And that led us after the recording to talk about the communication, the working interface, which is often the board and the manager. So met, a majority of associations are professionally managed. And we want to spend a little bit of time talking about how to get your money's worth how to have a clearer understanding of the board's role, managers role, and how to work well together. While we regularly ask for your input for these episodes, and I want to start out with a question asked by Leslie from Texas. And she wrote, our relationship with our manager is crumbling. When do we as a board know, it's time to fire them and look for another? So along those lines, that thought, if you have a question or a story or a topic that you'd like to have us address in a future podcast, please call us at 805-203-3130 or email us at podcast@reservestudy.com. So on this topic of board manager relationships, Julia, let's start with Leslie from Texas's question.

Julie Adamen: 4:35

Yeah, let's start with that. So just to review for me, our relationship with our manager is crumbling. How do we know when it's time? Well, if you actually know it's crumbling, it's time. It's time to let that go. However, Leslie also said, Should we fire you know, when it's crumbling, it's time to fire them or should we fire them and then look for somebody else? Let me caution all of you board members out there who I'm assuming this person probably works directly for the association. That's kind of what it sounds like. So I'm just going to assume that for this right now,

Robert Nordlund: 5:07

I couldn't tell if it was Portfolio Manager or on site. Yeah, it

Julie Adamen: 5:11

sounds on site to me, because sometimes the boards will mix those words if but it would be more like if they were a portfolio manager, they'd say, we need to talk to the management company about a new manager. But let's just assume it's on site. Right now, it is such a tight market out there for good qualified community association managers very, very tight. So if you fire someone, I mean, if if they're stealing, or it's some unethical behavior, it's really falling apart, maybe that's the most prudent thing to do. But if you can hold on and start looking for somebody before you fire them, because it can take you three to six months to find the right person, that's how tight the market is, it is so tight. And also, especially if this manager has been there for any length of time, 5-6-7 years, the price of your next manager is going to be higher than what you're paying for the current manager for a good skill set. So just be just say, but if it Oh, it's the market super tight. But in the market, you're gonna have to pay more. Yes, competitive gotta gotta pay more. Now, I will tell you, you can always hire someone with a lesser skill set or board say, well, we just can train somebody up. And can you do that? Yes, does it typically happen? Well no. It sounds good, because it sounds inexpensive. But you know, as board members, number one, it's not your job, and you shouldn't be training the general manager. But also, you probably don't have all the skill set, you need to train a real general manager. So you want to bring somebody in who's experienced. And I would argue that your fiduciary role, I'd say all day long, it is your fiduciary duty to do so. Because that's better for the entire corporation, not just this moment in time where by gosh, we can get this person for 30,000 a year less. And that's you can't think of it that way. So that's what I would cost you. But if you say it's crumbling, you need to start working on something now.

Robert Nordlund: 6:58

I had that thought about Portfolio Manager versus onsite manager. And we're glad you touched on that, that sometimes it is less than we spoke, it was about relationships and style. And sometimes there's a style mismatch, you may have gotten a manager who's strong with numbers, but weak on communications, or strong with communications. But holy moly, don't ask me about financials.

Julie Adamen: 7:20

That's exactly right. And you can, if you're looking for the best person, they need to have that balance. But I'll tell you, I can teach people all day long how to be a manager. But to have a heart for the business and a heart for the people is something they just have to have innately. And especially. And especially in an onsite situation, that skill is crucial. Crucial, you have to be able to interact with people from all walks of life, and being able to tell them no firmly in a nice way. And and at the same time still carry out the agenda of the board, which you know, may ruffle some feathers and you're the one you're the face of it. And you're the one who has to be able to do it. It's a it's quite a skill set.

Robert Nordlund: 8:02

Right? Well, on top of that skill set. And there's a lot of places I want to go with this. But are there credentials? What kind of skills? Could you define? What do you look for on a resume?

Julie Adamen: 8:13

Oh, what do I look for in a resume? Or is it just two years of experience? Not necessarily. But here's what I look for when I'm you know, doing a recruiting situation for a large scale association or high rise, what I look for is, is success in the industry like a proven track record? In other words, I don't want to see eight jobs in 10 years, though, sometimes that can happen. But that usually equals something's not right. And it's usually not with all those eight boards. So there's that I look for, but doesn't mean they have to be in one job. 10 years. In fact, sometimes that can be a detriment, because they just don't have this other experience that they that if you move around a little bit more in our industry, five years at play six, seven at a place at the most, then you get so much different experience with different people in different types of communities and different personalities of communities. I think we talked last, I think we talked last time about the personalities and know that they're all like dogs. There's there's really yappy dogs, and then there's the golden retriever Association and then there's the pit bull Association. And you all know if you have one or not, you know what I'm talking about that but that's what they get that kind of thing. So I look for a proven track record. I do look for industry credentials, education, depending on the type of community it is. But I know some really, really good managers who've been around for a long time who are not as credentialed as they possibly could be, they should be a PCAM which for us in our industry, that's the highest basically the highest designation, professional community association manager, it's given out by CAI which is community Associations Institute, our national professional organization, I look for that, but it's not always the definitive because I've known PCAMs, they can't manage it all. And I've know people who don't have a PCAM who are excellent managers. So but I do look for it. And here's why. That in the in the next designation That would be an AMS, the first one be a CMCA in California and Arizona and somewhere in Florida. I mean they have their own designations as well. But Florida's honestly. Well, Florida's CAM, yeah. But you have to be licensed in the state of Florida, right. But in California, you don't. But they they have a California Association community managers, organization for California managers, specifically, they have a C-CAM designation. Also with some other ones, like for executives or high rise managers, they have like a second designation that goes with it. But overall, nationally, I look for PCAM. And here's why or actually any of these because if you are maintaining those designations as a manager, that means you are going to industry events, because you have to have continuing ed credits, you're taking courses. And when you're doing that you are especially now that COVID is over, thank goodness, that you have to go to these events, and you end up networking with people you learn from other people in the classes you take. And as boards, you want your manager to go through continuing education. Now I've had board say, well, we shouldn't pay for that. If they're in house not working for a management company, we should we pay for that? I'm like, Absolutely, it's a relatively small cost. And you will reap the benefits of your managers, education and their continuing education. So that's, that's I look for involvement in the industry, it does make a difference.

Robert Nordlund: 11:23

Yeah, I think we've been talking a lot about onsite managers, it's gonna be a different conversation, if we're talking about Sure, let me say, a simpler Association, 50 units here, 75 units there, a 20 unit, or even a 200 unit plan development to a simpler Association. And all they need is financial management, or all they need is a portfolio manager, then that would be a whole different conversation about the company's credentials and the company, their style, things like that. Let's bookmark that for another time. Okay. Well, I'll talk about the board getting along with the manager. So what does that look like the talk about, generally the board's role, the manager's role, what kind of expectations should they have for working together successfully?

Julie Adamen: 12:15

Well, the first thing I want to talk about is the board's role. And now don't forget everybody, I sit on a board and I used to sit on two at one time. And so and that was just up until about the last six months ago. So I've been on all sides of the equation. And it's, it's really interesting, because a lot of boards are mistaken about their role. And what your role as a board member is, you're not a functionary, you are not, you are a policymaker, and board sets policy of how they want things done, taken care of, they give them and they have a manager, whether it's Portfolio Manager, that person works for a management company and, and manages several accounts or you have an onsite manager, it doesn't matter, the board sets the policy and management is to carry out the policy. That's not the board's job to carry out their own policy, when you have a manager. And if you are finding that you have to carry out the policy yourself. And I'm not saying because you're micromanaging for fun. We'll talk about that in a second. But if you have a manager capable manager capable management company, you set the policy. This is how we, let's just do something super simple like, Okay, this year, we're going to have all the flower beds in pink Petunias, whatever, right pink petunias. We want all our flowers. And it's not the board's job to go out there and watch the landscapers plant, it's not the board's job to receive the flowers. That's the landscapers job. It's the manager's job to ensure the landscaper does that and the board, judges management based on the results of the carrying out of their policies and how well they were carried out and to and to their status to the board satisfaction. That is your job. If you are having to ensure that little things are getting done because they truly are falling through the cracks. That's one thing and maybe you need to review your managers performance or the management company's performance, but just don't let that bleed into you as board members micromanaging every little thing. Because if you have to micromanage that's one thing. The boards that may it's not necessarily even the whole board. It could be one board member that micromanagers to can't let go because, yeah, can't let go. They just got to be on top of it. And there's a lot of reasons people do that. But the number one thing is though, is that they're unclear on their role. So they're unclear on their role as a policymaker not a functionary, or they may be in the past have been burned, the board's been burned by bad management. So they just want to hover. You know, you gotta let people go through their paces, and they will, if they're good at what they do, and you are judging them on the results, and the results are great. Owners are happy policies being carried out. The place looks great. resale value is fantastic. That's the way to judge management. Now. I'll tell you in Australia, when they judge their managers or their communities sociation managers that they called strata managers, but when they judge them, they judge that based upon the value of the real estate, so has the value of the overall real estate gone up? Well, management must be doing something pretty good.

Robert Nordlund: 15:13

I like that. That's, that's a very important metric. I like that metric a lot more than low monthly assessments, low monthly assessments, I consider a destructive metric, but strong property values. Hopefully, it's benchmarked against the larger city or something. So if the economy's bad property values are going to go down that has nothing to do with what the individual manager is doing.

Paige Daniels: 15:37

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Robert Nordlund: 16:08

When I when you were talking about policy versus functionary, we do webinars about reserve studies. And so often I get questions. How do I do this? And I want to answer that's the wrong question. You should be having a reserve say expert be doing this. Because if I was a painter, I would be hoping people aren't asking me well, what brand of brush do you use, what brand of paint do you recommend? Let the professional do that. And that's exactly what you're talking about. Let the professional do what the professional has been hired to do.

Julie Adamen: 16:39

The boards that will often manage the Manage, you know, micromanage the manager management company, they'll do that. But they would never then dream of managing, like I said, like you said the painter or the roofer, right, they wouldn't think about it, but they don't mind managing the management company, I think because it's so close to them. Here's the thing is that so many people, even to this day, Robert, and you can attest to this is that they don't people don't necessarily know about our industry. They're like, there's a whole industry that manages homeowners associations, and you're like, Yeah, because we're kind of an unknown business. I mean, and when you tell someone, as if you're a manager, and you tell someone that this is what you do for a living, they're like, You're kidding. I'll never do that job till I can make it.

Robert Nordlund: 17:21

Yeah, you can make a living doing that. I didn't know exactly. But then you explained that we look at those different associations and need someone to organize things, administer things, make sure the income comes in, the bills get paid. There are so many things to get done, then people say, Ah, yeah, now I understand. But that's it. That's the functionary. And the board sets policy for with collections. What do we do at 60 days? What do we do at 90 days, and let the the manager make sure the triggers happen? Whether that's a form that they send out, or the trainee gets contacted? The matcher makes life easy. I think maybe it's that transition from people who think that Well, I have a rental property or I know this other thing, and I could do this, and they think that it's simple. But when it comes to 50, or 100, or 150 units, and all those owners, and are they paying and is the landscaper coming Tuesday and Thursday or event, see him last Tuesday, and we're gonna do all those kinds of things. That's the manager's job. It's not the board workshop, it's be so easy for them to float in and maybe try to offer help or wonder if the manager is doing that's I think, yeah. Gray separation between policy and functionary that I don't think boards appreciate enough.

Julie Adamen: 18:48

Yeah, it's there. And it also will make their life easier. The board doesn't want to be that intricately involved in all those little things. I mean, it's like, let's talk about something like violation letter. So it's a violation letter goes out for whatever some architectural problem or whatever violation letter goes out. And obviously, the board has set their policy on why we send out the violation letter where we, that they have 30 days to respond or whatever that part, that's what the policy of the board is. But I think that the board would want to get involved in that right away, well, we should have this person come in thorough, we just want to handle that person individually. We just want to see all of these violations. We want them all to come in. Well, you don't want to do that as a board member, because what happens when you become that kind of functionary, it is your job is now judge and jury over every little thing that goes in the on in the association and that will make you highly unpopular. Also, it keeps you incredibly busy. And you don't need that let the management company deal with that manager deal with that, not you. So don't forget, if you have to spend a whole bunch of hours working as a board member, it gets more difficult to find new board members because they don't want to work, you know, 40 hours a week.

Robert Nordlund: 19:56

Yeah, let me follow that a little bit. When I think of a match I think of someone who can be a coach who can give the association the benefit of their experience. And when the board says, well, let's set this policy, maybe the manager can say, let's, I like your idea. But let's do it a little bit differently to make it work better. So yes, the managers job is there to administer. But not, let's say blindly

Julie Adamen: 20:21

use them as a resource, as well, as well, maybe especially managers who've been doing this for five years plus, whether it's portfolio or whatever, they typically have seen, almost everything under the sun, it may just be a little tweak may be a little different, but everything under the sun. And here this reminds me of something. Robert, I want to talk about I think we we chatted before, before about this. So one thing I hear from boards who have who were have a manager who's a portfolio manager, so that means they have their account, plus 567 1012 others, and that's how I started in the business. And so I did all my original managing in the Palm Springs area, so the Coachella Valley. And as a portfolio manager, I would have 5-6-7 accounts. And you know, some could be really big, even condos, because they had a lot of land out there you had so they built bigger things. So if you're managing in a city, LA, Minneapolis, wherever like that, you might have 20 accounts, because there's a whole bunch of smaller ones, because there was no land to build, where I we had seven or eight accounts in a 200 unit account would be small to me, even if they were condos. So anyway, my point on this is this. So what a lot of boards don't understand is how much time that they are allotted when they have a portfolio manager. And it's not that the management company allots of the time will they actually they kind of do when they bid. And if they're not they should, you have to understand that if you are one of seven or eight accounts that your manager has, that everything isn't just like this for you, it's it's takes, you know, the manager has basically has board meeting to board meeting to get that stuff done. So you have a board meeting, the manager goes away from that board meeting with their action list. So that's there to do work for the month, next month or beginning to work that's going to go on, and I've had boards say to me, but they didn't hear anything from them, you know, that was about a week ago, they should have had that all done? No, they have that 30 days, unless it's something really critical, obviously, that needs to get done. But they have that 30 days and what boards need to understand. Look at it this way. And this is going to be very eye opening for you. Let's say a manager has seven accounts. And each account and I'm just doing this for simplicity sake. And you could figure this out yourself. Let's say the manager works a 45 hour week. And I would say that's actually low, they usually work 50 to 55 hours a week. But let's go 45 And that includes board meetings walkthroughs, all that stuff. If your account pays 750 a month, under a typical management contract, that contract doesn't say this, but you all need to understand that gives you about two and a half hours a week of that managers time, two hours, two and a half. That's it. And that's so your account gets two and a half hours a week that's answering your all of the emails that come in, that's answering phone calls, that's walkthroughs. That's meetings. So you have to frame it that way. Now, if you want more of a manager's time, honestly, you have to pay for it. And you have to tell your management company that usually the association's that have the portfolio situation, they're pretty happy with it, because they know they're not paying like they don't have an onsite manager which really raises your costs. But they have but you basically have a part time manager but you have a management company that is producing and taking care of all the stuff on the back end, your mailings, your billing, incoming calls that go just to customer service and not the after hours call. So that's what you get. And so if you want more, you can pay for more. But if you happy with it pretty good what it is, remember, the manager is not, you know is not right on your account at all times, they always have a touch on it somewhere, but it's not right on there, seven days a week 24/7 You have to appreciate that of that 45 hours per week.

Robert Nordlund: 24:03

If that portfolio manager has 10 properties, they're gonna get 4.5 hours or less. And just a little bit of responsiveness and have to respect that but let me follow up and it's

Julie Adamen: 24:15

not even by the week, don't forget that even by the rubber. I use that too. It's for simplicity. But if they have three annual meetings for three associations in one week, they are just slammed and you are their account may not get any manager attention that week, though,

Robert Nordlund: 24:29

part time but then again, the benefit is low cost. What can a board do to be considered by the management company as a good account?

Julie Adamen: 24:39

Well, don't be a pit bull account happy.

Robert Nordlund: 24:42

That's it? How can I would imagine I'm closing my eyes. Imagine if the management company levels someone says oh, you have happy villas. They're a great account. Good for you. I wish I had more accounts like happy villas. How does a board be that happy villas where they have that Great relationship is it, knowing the roles is it just knowing the roles,

Julie Adamen: 25:05

it's knowing their roles. And it's also understanding the amount of service they're get for paying. But it's also it's not an intangible sort of is but not quite the last actual job I had when I was on site with Palm Valley. Now I was in a portfolio situation, but it doesn't matter. That board, if seven board members and they were big thinkers, six out of the seven were big thinkers. In other words, they were not caught in minutia. They were not down there, thinking they had to micromanage they, they set policy, and they so they had really good rules and regulations. They have really good policies on enforcement thereof. And smaller associations can be just like this. I'm just using that one because it was the last real job I had. Right. But it's they are looking at the results of what the contractors do. They're not out there looking to make sure that, you know, the landscaper used the exact, you know, sprinkler head that they got charged for I mean, that they're not doing that they're judging by the results, when boards do that the community tends to be happier. I mean, happier overall, because the board is in tune with what's going on. Because they're big thinkers, they're in tune, what is the needs of the community, and they are judging the contractors, the management on the results of what is going on. So whenever somebody wants to just run in there and change something, and everything's already running really well, let's look at see why it's running. Well, let's not just want to go in and change things for changes sake. Yeah,

Robert Nordlund: 26:28

well, the intangible there is trust, where the board is trusting the manager to do with the manager supposed to do the manager is doing what they do, are trusting the board, and I could be sending him 17 emails, because of trivia, that is just going to suck away time that they could be doing better things. So how long does it take to find out if the you're on the right path, training each other, developing trust with each other,

Julie Adamen: 26:54

I would say, give that about 90 days. I mean, I just think, you know, when I was a manager blow these many years ago, I always had, I would tell people that I trained up is like when you get into account, you need to kind of not do a lot. I mean, you don't want to make a bunch of changes for at least 30 days, unless it's something illegal, immoral, that kind of thing. I'm just saying. But in general, if things are doing okay, you want to observe how the contractors work, how they report in how your relationship develops with them, which by the way boards, managers, relationships with their contractors with the vendors, that is good relationships are gold for you, that's money in your pocket, because those people who have good relationships with managers, then managers have good relationship with the boards, and thus the contractor does, they trust the board to not be in their face, and they trust, they're going to get paid on time, those things all work to the benefit of the association. But back to the original question for the manager about 30 days, and then overall 90 days for board and manager to be able to trust each other. And believe me, that relationship has a lot to do with personalities, and how they mesh. So it's, you know, if you have a manager who is and this happens is highly focused on finances only, but their people skills are lacking. If you have an association that has maybe lifestyle, you know, things, there's a lot of clubs, there's a lot of committees, and they're rather social place, that person who's focused on financials only may not be the right manager for you. And then vice versa, if the board is highly focused on financials and I's dotted T's crossed everything, just perfect that way, the manager who is more people oriented, they that's more of their focus, they may be able to do the other stuff, but they're more focused on on people and the interactions thereof. And they're great at that, that they may not be the exact right balance. So that's always something to think about when boards when you are interviewing your manager, whether they work for a management company or not, let's just say you get the chance to interview them. Some companies will like to do that when you get a new one. Or you start a new company, that that's what you want to look for that mesh that mesh and the manager wants to look forward to. But that says boards, that's what you want.

Robert Nordlund: 29:11

Yeah, I'm looking at these things. Policy versus functionary experience doesn't always necessitate a credential. There is this personality match is almost like dating. It can be a great person. He's like dating the right person for you. And then trusting once you've said, Okay, I'll do this, you do that? And then you watch it for maybe a month or two or three, and you realize, oh, yeah, it is getting done. And then you can be more hands off. And just like you said, I want to emphasize it. When the management company or the manager is trustworthy. They are exactly the right person who has good relationships with the business providers, the service providers. And so when they call the landscaper and say hey, I've got a broken sprinkler head at Happy Villas the landscapers.

Julie Adamen: 30:02

And it was five o'clock on Friday, and it's five o'clock on Friday. Yes. Easy account.

Robert Nordlund: 30:06

I like those count. I'll be right over there. Yep, that's what they

Julie Adamen: 30:10

want. That's that trust. That's all it's it's a circular trust between those three entities. management vendors, manager. Right. Defenders board. Sorry.

Robert Nordlund: 30:20

Yeah, if you can get that going in the right direction. So real positive swirl. And so that's what we're talking to here to board members. And for board members, we do want to encourage that that, yes, your manager, treat them like a valued- Can I say a valued employee? Not not demeaning? Yeah, they're not just not an errand person. But they can provide advice and counsel, and sometimes a little bit of kicking in the pants when the board needs to be firm on something. Mrs. Johnson, we all love Mrs. Johnson. But when she's 90 days late, she hit the 90 day late policy, you know,

Julie Adamen: 30:58

there was a lien on her house. Yeah. Or yeah, has to be done.

Robert Nordlund: 31:01

Yeah, has to be done. So there's an interesting dynamic that it is working together. And all those different elements. So yeah, fascinating. We didn't get to.

Julie Adamen: 31:14

Which one did we miss? Oh,

Robert Nordlund: 31:16

we got through a lot of topics. But we want to talk about, we want to talk about mission and vision got a larger purpose. We want to talk about leadership. We want to talk about board members, you mentioned it making serving on the board seem attractive. It's not an onerous or difficult or challenging or evil thing. So getting new board members, board member roles themselves, boy, a lot of places we can go and we got we got years worth of stuff to talk about got a year's worth of stuff. And we'll do it in 30 minute increments. Well, Julie, well, it's, it's always fantastic talking to you. Thank you for your sharing your insights today.

Julie Adamen: 31:55

Thank you. One thing I want to mention, Robert, just so the people here know, I have a series of online classes for board members. And you can go to my website, which is Adamen-inc.com. Or you can you can Google me and find it or you can email podcast@reservestudy.com. Yeah, it should be in the show notes, I believe. Oh, okay. It's in the show notes then. But if you have especially new board members, but it's it's quite affordable, and you can take it at home, but that might really give you some insight into what it's like to be a board member. And so just just to put it throw it out there folks, shameless self plug,

Robert Nordlund: 32:25

I know. Well, like so many things nowadays. The thankfully we are basically over the pandemic, but one of the good things is it accelerated so many things that we do virtually. Oh, sure. And those are, those are some good things that we can take advantage of. It's a huge thing. Yeah. Well, we hope you learned something today from our discussion that helps you bring common sense to your common areas. If you have a topic you'd like to have us address, crazy story or questions, please call us at 805-203-3130 or email us at podcast@reservestudy.com. Look forward to having you join us for another great episode. Next week.

Announcer: 33:07

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