023 | How Are We Going to Pay for HOA Insurance?

Kevin Davis: 0:00

At a point in time where today's unsustainable? Because just like your business, right, you know how much it costs to do your job. You get competitors come in and guess what they do undercut you? Right? Then you get more competitors come in, and then you have to decide that guess what? I can't do it for anything less than this. Well, insurance carriers do the same thing.

Announcer: HOA Insights: 0:19

Common Sense for Common Areas exists to help all 2 million volunteer board members nationwide have the right information at the right time to make the right decisions for their future. This podcast is sponsored by four companies that care about Board Members Association insights & Marketplace, Association Reserves, Community Financials, and Kevin Davis Insurance Services. You'll find links to their websites and social media in the show notes.

Robert Nordlund: 0:50

Hi, I'm Robert Nordlund, of association reserves.

Kevin Davis: 0:53

And I'm Kevin Davis of Kevin Davis Insurance Services. And this is HOA Insights, where we promote common sense for common

Robert Nordlund: 1:01

areas. Welcome to Episode 23, where we'll be helping you figure out how your association can face that challenging task of paying for the sometimes significantly higher insurance premiums you'll be facing this year. I'm thinking especially of our episode 13 With Board Hero, Gabriel Albarian, where in that episode titled insurance nightmare to Hoa victory, we heard what he was able to do in that situation. We want to encourage you and equip you to navigate successfully to the future. So we're glad you joined us today. If you missed any other prior episodes, you can catch them from the podcast website, www.commonareas.org. Take a moment after this episode to subscribe to this podcast from your favorite platform to avoid missing any future helpful episodes. And last point of business. Before we launch into today's episode, I want to remind you that if you have a hot topic, crazy story, or a question you'd like us to address, you can contact us at 805-203-3130 or email us at podcast at reserve study.com. So Kevin, I know you get these calls all the time. What do you tell people to do about paying for higher premiums?

Kevin Davis: 2:13

Thanks. Thanks, Robert. And I heard that podcast and it just I've been hearing the story of so often how we can't afford our insurance anymore. What can we do? We can't afford it a rates are going up too high? And Robert, the answer is, as a simple answer is something that nobody is doing the correct way. And that is you have to budget, you have to get the information that you need. Because we know from an insurance professional, we know what's going to happen. We know what's going to happen to your rates. So you're going to have to ask us you have to go to your community association insurance specialists and ask them, what does our rate look like the upcoming year, they're going to tell you it's going to be about 10 15% higher than it was last year, then what you do is you budget for it. If you need a special assessment, if you need increase your assessments, you have to do it. And here's the thing about budgeting Robert, you know, because you do this all the time, and you tell people about the reserves and a roofing everything like that, is you're going to have an insurance amount this year. It's gonna go up again next year. So if you're paying, you know, $30,000 now and three years ago, you pay 10,000. Well, guess what? It's gonna go up a little bit more next year. So we see, we know it, you know, you don't have to guess you don't have to sit back and wait until the moment you get that request in your hand and saying your insurance is now this I suppose that you have to talk to us as insurance professionals and say, What do you think about the upcoming year?

Robert Nordlund: 3:48

Yep. Kevin. Now that reminds me of was it when the pandemic started, everything got unsettled. And we're hearing these first stories about supply chain that became something we spoke about. We were at that point in time trying to put to replace a wood fence on the side of our house. And I figured it'd be 500 bucks or something like that. It was pretty simple, pretty short. And I spoke to the fencing gentleman that we've used previously in the other prior years. And he said it was probably going to be 1500 to$2,000. And it was just crazy. And I think in addition to the pandemic type things we've heard about a high inflation recently, and I think it's just the reality that there are some boards that are hanging on to we've had our HOA assessments at this level for this many years. We're proud of that. And one hand I want to say good for you to hold the line. But the reality is we live in an inflationary time period and whether its supply chain or hurricane in or channeling towers out or any of these other things. It's going to affect insurance and we have to appreciate that the reality is costs are going As your assessments are going to have to go up,

Kevin Davis: 5:02

and for insurance point of view is even more so because your insurance is based on what it costs to replace your condo association after it burns down. So historically, you may say, well, it costs $10 a square foot to replace it, that would be four or five years ago before COVID. So you're looking at insurance over the past 15-20 years, they may be saying it's gonna cost $10, a square foot$10 a square foot. So your rate is based off at $10 a square foot. Now all of a sudden, because of what you just said, is now $13 A square foot, that means your rate is one 30%.

Robert Nordlund: 5:34

Right. So it's not that the insurance companies are raising the rate, it's the underlying foundation that the costs of construction, the cost of doing things at the association, those have gone up. And the insurance is basically just a layer on top of that. So when the costs go up, the premiums to the client has to go up.

Kevin Davis: 5:53

And the price of insurance, what they've done is over this past 1015 years, the rates haven't gone up with the losses. So now losses have outpace the cost of insurance. So what happened to replace that fire condo that burned? Now, we're looking at, oh, my God, it's $15 per square foot. And we've been charging $10 a square foot for the past 10 years, and it's not. And so basically, if people hate this here, this would they've gotten a good deal for about, 15 years?

Robert Nordlund: 6:24

Yeah. Kevin, I'm trying to adjust to that, because it's the common thing to blame the insurance company and to blame the insurance providers for the spiking rates. And now I'm having to almost one spin in my chair and a process that like, like any large organization or large industry, they've been slow to react, and they got behind the curve themselves. What what did it take for them to wake up? Just some, some more losses, and they realize this, this is unsustainable.

Kevin Davis: 6:55

That's the whole point, you get a point in time where today's unsustainable, because just like your business, right, you know, it's a cost to do your job. You get competitors come in, and guess what they do undercut you? Right? Then you get more competitors come in. And then you have to slide that guess what, I can't do it for anything less than this. Well, insurance carriers do the same thing. We write insurance, somebody comes in undercuts us, he undercut us. And then all of a sudden, that $10 It costs a square foot to replace it. Now, we said well, maybe there's a cost to it, maybe cost $8, maybe$7, the claim started coming in and we say, Wow, now it's $15. And guess what? We can't afford it. And what happened? We can't afford it. You got State Farm farmer that pulling out? Yeah, all he's been pulling out of the market, because we can't afford to do business anymore under these conditions. So it was like bam, hit a wall. It's been the insurance has been consistent and stable for about 15, almost since 9/11 9/11, the last time the rates have gone up. The ratio talking about today hasn't been as bad in 40 years, when I first joined insurance rates were through the roof, and then they get leveled off. And then all of a sudden, but right now, you're looking at one particular thing. And as the cost to replace a building, the cost is the number one reason why you're seeing a lot of these things raising right now, because we looked at eight, nine $10 per square foot. And now it's costs 30 and 40. And that's where that rate 15 20% rate comes in. And we look at it again. And again. How do you how do we do that? We keep saying to well, it's based on to replace your building. That's what it's based on. So and that's where the debate always comes in, wait a minute to replace my home is going to cause what X number of dollars, but you want to short for x plus one. And so that's where the debate comes into place. But it always comes in place when it's kind of late in the game where it's like, wow, it is we know how much it goes, we have inspectors go out there and say, Alright, this is how much it cost to replace it. And it's gotten into the debates there. That's probably the biggest issue right now, with from an assurance point of view, is we've looked at something and says the cost to replace it has gone up. It shows us that making money costs, just the the vestiges mentioned, you know, to prepare roofs. All those things have gone up. So it's inflation is a problem plus insurance carriers fighting over winning a piece of the marketplace, a share of the marketplace, rather than keeping their eye on the ball and saying okay, cause we saw it! We know, for the past four or five years since, you know, three or four years now that inflation is going in different direction. And one more thing to add to it is that you have all the climate conditions that we had all the fires and hurricanes and floods and things that we haven't seen yet 100 year flood every 10 years now. So you combine the two of those things together. And it's just, you know, it's a nightmare for insurers to go out there and say, How can I insure this and still make money and a lot of are saying we can't. And so we're done.

Robert Nordlund: 10:05

You know, speaking to, just reminds me how obvious this is, there was many years ago, I live in Southern California, we had an earthquake, the insurance company made us well financially paid for the remodeling, that are the repairs that needed to happen in our house. And that company promptly was out of business a year later. And I thought, how can that be, they're a big insurance company, didn't they know. And they had been competitive, and they'd been competitive. That's why we use their insurance. And all of a sudden, they realized that, that desire to be competitive and keep their rates low, just wasn't appropriate to offset the claim cost. And they were out of business. And that's, I guess, just business on another level, if you're trying to get a car wash or anything, and you're not charging enough to sustain your business model, you're gonna go out of business. Yeah,

Kevin Davis: 10:59

every insurance is unique, because, you know, you look at we don't have a lot of claims out there. But they collected a lot of premium coming in, and people invest money to you got, you got investments in insurance, because they are seeing that, you know, they're making good money until you're not, because all of a sudden, you're not making money. And obviously investors start pulling out and all of a sudden, you realize that we can afford to do to do business this way. Now you have a State Farm and a farmers who has a ton of money, all they could do is say, I'm not writing anymore. If you're in fire prone area, we're not going to insure you that area, because we can't make enough money in there. Or earthquake insurance. We can't make money on earthquake insurance. So we're not going to do it. We're not going to do this anymore. It is really a it's and I said this earlier is that the insurance companies have gave everybody out there a good deal, you've gotten a good deal for 15 years, maybe close to 20 years. And now, insurance companies say we can't afford to do business this way anymore.

Robert Nordlund: 11:56

Oh, wasn't it, Warren Buffett, who recently said, when the tide goes out, that's when you learn who's wearing a bathing suit or not. And I have probably misquoted that, but just the same idea that when everything's going along just fine. There's no worries. Now, until an insurance business, there's hurricanes and wildfires, like you say and more problems. Okay. So what do you do if you've waited because you've presumed cross your fingers and presume that insurance is going to be okay, a little bit more expensive than last year will tuck it into a pocket in the budget will make adjustments and all of a sudden, it's a big change. And insurance being a big line item that is unsettling in your budget? What do you do in those cases where you haven't emotionally physically or financially prepared for that change?

Kevin Davis: 12:44

And that's one of the problems right now is that they haven't prepared for the change. So now so we're hearing about, we're hearing about special assessments, okay. Which is hard, because special assessments have to be approved. And a lot of people we hear that, well, we have special assessment for the pay for insurance. The first thing you want to do is go out for bid get get lower rates is too high. I have a friend I can get you a better deal. Okay, so that's the first thing. You get a loan. We have people get loans on they're not really. Yeah. Oh, yeah, you get loans, pay for insurance,

Robert Nordlund: 13:16

a multi year loan for a for premium

Kevin Davis: 13:19

for first year premium. Once again, you got a problem, because you got sustainability. So what happens next year? Yeah, then the year after that, you know, it's not sustainable. And that's where we at right now, that to me, the problem is, is that for us, there's been a 15% rate increase since the year 2000. Okay, so a lot of rates have gone up from whatever was 10,000. Before is now you know, at 15,000, you know, and that's a percent rate increase. Now, you're looking at your budget now go Wait, man, what happened here? How come so high? And what do we do, because now there's shortfalls every single year. And that's why that budgeting process is so important. You can go to the reserves, some people going into the reserves, instead of you know, putting that new roof on there the pay for the insurance?

Robert Nordlund: 14:03

Yeah, well, we see it. People talking to us in the reserves a business saying, you told us our roof would be$200,000. And it's not it's a$400,000. And I said, Well, how old is that reserve study? They said, well, it's from 2018, said, prices have changed a lot since 2018. And that's the the cost of not staying current with numbers and numbers have really changed in the last few years, and then from year to year to year. So again, what can you do? We have like Gabriel Berry, and he talked about the combination of special assessments and raised increases. So maybe you spend all your insurance budget on that first portion of the premium. You buy yourself some time and then do a special assessment to get ready for what the second or third payment. That's a strategy. I don't like loans. I'm okay with shopping but shopping takes time and you You need insurance?

Kevin Davis: 15:01

Well, let's talk about shopping because that's that's that's, its that's one of the biggest problems that we have today is people think that this someone else has a magic wand. So my I have a friend of a friend of a friend who knew better than that, guess what he did on my homeowners insurance? There are not a lot of people who are providing coverage for community associations.

Paige Daniels: 15:20

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Robert Nordlund: 15:52

Are Is there any magic solution out there? Or is it kind of the same?

Kevin Davis: 15:57

That's the problem. And a lot of people believe that this is because you get that higher premium. Again, you're you went from 10,000 to 15,000. And we say that it's gonna be a 15% rate increase every year. And the reason why for we just said because the cost is higher. Now, first thing that happens is that your board of directors, it Oh, presents that you have the universe say I have a friend and get it lower. There are no magic wands out there. If you're dealing with a Community Association specialist, okay specialize in insurance for community associations, they know that there was going on, they know where to go to get the best rate, and the best coverages. The problem is you can go to somebody and get a cheaper rate. But it doesn't provide the coverage that you need. For example, they can save, you can save money by saying I'm gonna have a per unit deductible. So there's water leak, guess what each each unit will pay $50,000 deductible. That way, guess what? The association is cheaper? Yep. And your associations pay lesser rate? And you're just setting yourself ouch, right? And those are kind of things that a specialist will tell you, Yes, I get a cheaper, but guess what, it's going to cost more on that individual unit owner. And if they can't pay it, it's gonna come back create another problem. So yes, there are we can we can come up with ways to make things cheaper for you. But at the end of the day, is it the best course of action for you. And that's what you're that's why you need that insurance specialist.

Robert Nordlund: 17:23

Right reminds me of one of our reserves study clients who were chafing at the funding recommendation that we made. And their response was they got either a president or their attorney to take the garage doors in their townhouse, and make that individual owner responsibility. Therefore, the association didn't have to replace the garage doors or paint, the garage doors, anything like that. And I'm thinking, that's crazy, that garage doors are still going to deteriorate, you're still going to have to pay for them. And now every owner is going to have to do their own one. And it's going to be more expensive. Because there's no economies of scale, then you have a problem with checkerboarding when they don't all get done at the same time.

Kevin Davis: 18:00

And then you might end up with one thing, they're gonna end up one more thing happened there. Now you got a lawsuit out of it. You know, you got a lawsuit because guess what your job is to maintain the association, five garage doors have messed up, five of them are looking nice. I made it just as distinct doesn't work in the long term. They

Robert Nordlund: 18:15

just don't work. Okay, so speak to a specialist. How do you find a specialist? Hopefully you have a specialist you go to do you Google it? Do you check with your listing in your local community Associations Institute CAI chapter? Where do you find an insurance specialist? Who Who knows? The two choices or three choices? The good choices that you have?

Kevin Davis: 18:37

Okay, guess what, there's something called a CIRMS is C I R M S. This is a Certified Insurance Risk Management Specialist. They specialize in community associations. So if you want to find a specialist, use that for number one. But number two, go to your community CAI and look in there. They have information there. Yet they have a directory that I can look in there and say I'm looking for insurance specialists. You can you can google insurance specialists. For community associations, they come up all the time, but look for a C I R M S, they're the ones that are specialized in it. And they're the ones that will help you the most they know what's going on. They will tell you that if you are continuing your the way you're doing your business and you're running Association this way, expect a 30 40% rate increase. If you want a five times that rate increase, these are the four or five things you should be doing. Okay.

Robert Nordlund: 19:34

Okay, I want to go back to a couple of things. What can you do when I've spoken to you before you've talked about there's kind of three things on the insurance side and that's the amount of coverage, the size of the deductible and what is actually covered. So exclusions and you want to be careful with those types of things. Because if you were a we spoke about before, if you're a lakefront condo and you have docks or pool, those are different hazards than if you're an HOA, and you have kind of nothing but just a tot lot. So you can play with those kinds of things. But you need coverage, don't you need coverage for everyone's mortgages and for their well being?

Kevin Davis: 20:15

Exactly. And that's, that's, that's, that's when it goes back to you need a specialist, because anybody can come in and say, Listen, we're gonna cover your buildings for fire, we're coming from for any disasters, we give you liability, you got coverage, okay. And it's a basic policy, it doesn't provide the things that you really need it because things happen more than your place burns down. I mean, is there that special things, like slip and falls? And, and, you know, there's a lot of things that happen to that association, that you got to make sure you have adequate coverage for and you get it? You said the three things. Yeah, make sure the limits are adequate. And we're talking about what we call that, right now, is at $10 a square foot? Or is it $15 per square foot, you know, you can have somebody come in and say, Guess what, I know a friend of a friend who can give it to you for $10 per square foot. So you're not doing $15 square foot, or don't worry about it, they'll never look at it anyway. So you have people who will manipulate the information in the background to get you a lower rate, you know, somebody who were, you know, questionable people out there, but if people out there will do certain things. Well, they're salesmen. Exactly, exactly. And a salesperson who can give you insurance is cheaper. But that kind of insurance that you need,

Robert Nordlund: 21:25

both for your building, they can sell you $10 million of insurance, and you may need 15, or 18 million or 20 million. And then there's a heap of troubles that come on that. But

Kevin Davis: 21:38

when the claim comes in, that's when you find out the troubles. We had a claim comes in and says, Wait a minute, you know, your last three buildings there, but you insured all three have under one blanket policy, and you did it wrong and cheaper this way, but it creates a lot of headache for you. And again, you know, we don't want you to be an insurance expert. Right now, we don't want to talk about a lot of insurance stuff. But we want to make sure you understand that if you talk to an insurance expert for community associations, you will get the best for your association, it may cost you, but you're getting what you really truly need, as opposed and you get options. Again, and right now the biggest option is is that you want to go lower, you can put so many exposures to the unit owner, you know, a lot of you have a lot water damage, the number one problem you have in these units, you have personally charged it, we may be able to put a deductible there. But it's not as simple as that. Because certain states allow you to do certain things that documents don't. So it's that simple. That's why you need a specialist. Yeah.

Robert Nordlund: 22:38

And I hear this, my mom's voice in my head saying don't be penny wise and pound foolish. And we're talking about 10s or hundreds of dollars per unit, hopefully. And what it's doing is covering your 1000s of dollars, and hundreds of 1000s of dollars of home. Yep. So yeah, it might be more expensive, and it's gonna be more expensive. But you put it in perspective, and there's some things that you just have to be able to afford. And there's only so much you can do. So it's a little bit are we here at a point where we say you have to grin and bear it, just grit your teeth and raise the money goes back to your first answer, budget,

Kevin Davis: 23:22

budget, your budget. And again, at the end of the day, insurance is cyclical, it eventually will go back around the other side. If rates start lowering, it'll get a little bit better, and you'll be able to afford it again. And this conversation we're having right now. Several years from now, it'd be like what we talked about, I mean, we had insurances, you know, by rate, I got a 20% discount, I had a 15% discount, you would talk about discounts again. So it's cyclical, what we experienced after 9/11, the rates went up. Okay, then he came back down, we experienced again, you're in 2008 2009, we had the the crisis, the financial crisis. You had some issues there. But then since the since that 15 years, it's been stable, consistent, even though insurers knew that they're they're dealing with hurricanes and fires more than have ever dealt with before. And they know they have not captured the right amount in terms of the square footage. They knew those things. But they wanted to keep what they had. And they kept it and kept it and now today, we're up against his wall. And Wall is it's a big wall, and we don't see it coming down for for a while.

Robert Nordlund: 24:31

Yeah. Well, again, I hear a voice in my head saying as much as there are some insurance providers that are leaving. I think we live in a wonderful country where there's competition. And that cycle will rebound where there'll be insurance companies who say, Oh, that's a lucrative business. Let's get back into it. There's money to be made. So business lures, insurance companies back end, there will be we'll be back to competition. And I loved hearing you per se that word discounts, there will be discounts. And I liked the ability for the client to be able to be a factor in this. What happened the client do? What can the client? Can they maintain the building? So they eliminate the leaky water that creates a slip and fall? Can they clear their brush away from the perimeter? Yeah, tell me what the client can do that will invite. Yeah,

Kevin Davis: 25:22

this is it. And this is what's going to change everything. If you avoid the avoidable. Okay, avoid the avoidable, certain things you can't avoid. If you live into the brush area, this fire that you can't complain because your rate is so high, because there's a fire there. If you live in a hurricane area with wind damage or hail, you can't complain about if you live in a community association, high rise as un sprinkler. Okay, you're gonna get dinged for it. You can't complain about that certain things you got to accept. That's the reality of the time. But if you are at a high rise, elevate, you have a high rise building. Does the elevator work? Right? You know, so it's a matter of difficulty and sprinkler? If you can have the best well run match Association, guess what's going to happen? You're going to bring people back into it. A perfect example is you have a lot of like in New York City, a lot unsprinkler build even California. Yep. unsprinkler high rises. Well, guess what? You can't Yeah, could come in and sprinkler them. But you want to have a well managed one where the wood elevators you look at the railings. And you look at the garages and the balconies you say, Wow, difficult to have a sprinkler doesn't mean it's not a well, man Association. And we will be the ones who can start writing these kinds of coverages. And that's when things start to go down. When you have people that can look and a truly underwriting say, we can make money at unsprayed, we can make money out even though they live in a brush area and as fires in the air. And we believe we can make more money there because it's those homes back there are more protected than ones that are not so we can make money out of there. Once that happens, guess what happens? That opposition comes and say, hey, guess what, they can make money on sprinkler buildings, we can make money on sprinkler buildings, well, they can make money in a fire hazard area, they can make money in a wind zone, they can make money, so we can make money into two. And that's when it's going to go the other direction. So it's going to happen sooner than you think it was gonna happen in ways that somebody's going to figure out a way to do it, where it's profitable. And then we will all follow suit. That's what happened. Every time you get into this marketplace where we hit the wall, somebody comes in and goes, Okay, what if we do a b and c room, and then all of a sudden rates come down, they hit that another bull, then the rates come down. And that's how this works?

Robert Nordlund: 27:33

Yeah, I love the client being involved in the process. I love their ability to affect their own future. And while a lot of things I like about this, I like that you've been in this business for decades. So you've seen cycles, so you know what you're talking about. I also like that the forces of competition isn't irregular, that gold business competition in this industry, or in this country, mean that just as some providers are shifting out or scared and reacting as a scared person would things are going to settle down and the competition will draw them back in and rates will stabilize. So yeah, it's a wonderful country with a competitive business environment. Every once in a while that bumps us. And right now we're getting bumped. But it will it will settle in. But in the meantime, we've got to say you've got to have the appropriate coverage that is fundamental to your association. So get the appropriate coverage. What else can we summarize with, make sure you're dealing with a CIRMS C I R MS Community Association risk management specialists and I get that right? Feel free to shop around, but make sure you're shopping around with someone that knows what they're talking about. What else have we summarized?

Kevin Davis: 28:44

The key thing, budget, budget, budget budget, there's nothing more important into budget because when you budget, it could be you know, when our my homeowners insurance rate went up, I live in a single family home, guess what I gotta find money to pay for. I don't have the ability to go out and ask my neighbors. Help me pay for my insurance. I can't go with that, you know, a year ahead of time, guess what my insurance gonna go for? 20%? Because where I live? Can you help me? And can I collect for my neighbors? No, I'd pay out of my pocket boards of directors or condominiums have that ability to go out there and say, Guess what's going on? Are we need to raise money to pay for insurance for the coming year. We need to do it. And then you budget correctly. And all of a sudden life it's just a little bit better for you.

Robert Nordlund: 29:28

Yeah, gonna be a little more expensive. But it's a we It's Our Community. We have to face reality that inflation is real costs are going up. The underlying reason is the cost of construction.

Kevin Davis: 29:40

It's all about how much goes replace your property. And guess what, we're not getting enough money to replace the property right now. We're just not and so we need to figure out a way to do it. And the best way to do it is by putting restrictions on your policy, putting higher deductibles on and lowering your limit taking coverages away but as a specialist, we have to make sure you get the coverage. that you need and understand. And we've taken things away. This will be taken away. So you understand that now you are taking that responsibility or a union or taking up responsibility.

Robert Nordlund: 30:09

Got it? Well, thank you, Kevin. As always, it's great talking with you. That was great help. Across the country. We've heard insurance is expensive this year. Unsettling many budgets. I wish we had a magic wand to instantly make things better, but it looks like we're going to have to be resourceful and move forward through this challenge, things are going to get better. So make sure you subscribed on your favorite podcast platform in order to catch all upcoming episodes on insurance and other helpful on hot topics. We hope you gained some HOA insights from our discussion today that helps you bring common sense to your common areas. If you have a topic you'd like to have us address, a story to tell or questions you'd like us to answer, please call 805-203-3130 or email us at podcast@reserve study.com. We look forward to having you join us for another great episode. Next week.

Announcer: 31:07

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