055 | What Happens When You File An HOA Insurance Claim?

Robert Nordlund: 0:00

Hi everyone, I have a special announcement to make. As you know, the mission of our podcast is to affirm, inspire, and motivate HOA board members. One way we hope to do that is with the launch of our new board member merch store. As a gift to boards who are meeting online, we're offering dozens of free and fun zoom backgrounds, designed specifically with you in mind. We've provided a link to the new store in our show notes, please check it out.

Kevin Davis: 0:31

But we started accusing the manager. Without adequate proof, you're now tapping into something else. He can come back after you and say wait a minute, I have a reputation here in this community. I have 30-40 associations if you start saying that I am not capable of handling the money or I'm not capable or I've stealing money which even worse, then all of a sudden, I've been damaged and it taught me a whole different set of liabilities hold him set of circumstances that you as a board member because you let the information leak out of Executive Session.

Announcer: HOA Insights: 1:02

Common Sense for Common Areas, exists to help all 2 million volunteer board members nationwide have the right information at the right time to make the right decisions for their future. This podcast is sponsored by for companies that care about board members, association insights and marketplace, association reserves, community financials, and Kevin Davis Insurance Services. You'll find links to their websites and social media in the show notes.

Robert Nordlund: 1:35

Hi, I'm Robert Nordlund of association reserves. And

Kevin Davis: 1:38

I'm Kevin Davis of Kevin Davis Insurance Services. And this is HOA Insights where we promote common sense

Robert Nordlund: 1:45

for common areas. Well, welcome to episode number 55, where we'll be speaking with insurance expert and regular co host Kevin Davis, to talk about what happens when an insurance claim occurs at your association. Well, it's always great to be prepared for what's next. And that's what this episode is going to be all about. But before we get going, I want to encourage you to check out last week's episode number 54. It was a fun and interesting discussion with a very conversational guy Mitch Drimmer of Axcela technologies about maximizing your cash flow by minimizing money that's tied up in homeowner delinquencies. Cash is the lifeblood of your association. And you need to be running your association like a business watching the income in addition to the expenses. So if you want to catch any prior episodes, you can listen from our podcast website, which is www.HOAinsights.org. Or watch the podcast from our YouTube channel, where you can simply subscribe to the podcast from any of the most popular podcast platforms. Now as we regularly do, we're going to start this episode out with an audience question. So if you have a hot topic, crazy story or a question you'd like us to address in an upcoming episode, leave us a comment or a question on 805-203-3130 or send us an email at podcast@reservestudy.com. So Kevin, today, Nancy from New Jersey asked, we suspect our manager of fraud with our reserve fund siphoning off over$1 million over the last 10 years from friendly vendors. Now the board is being accused of allowing this to happen. But it was the manager that gave us doctored reports, I guess that's what they suspect or what's their thinking? What do we do? Well, so Kevin, what do we tell Nancy? Okay,

Kevin Davis: 3:40

well, this is a great question. And is a lot of Nancy's out there who's wondering the same thing. Because whenever the Board of Directors go to the bank and look at the reserve account operating account, the first thing they do is say, wait a minute, this should be more money in here, what's going on?

Robert Nordlund: 3:56

Well, that let me stop you right there. You said they went to the bank. But so many times we hear the wise counsel that make sure you're getting a statement right from the bank, or logging in and seeing the real numbers, because we don't want to be subject to potentially doctored reports.

Kevin Davis: 4:14

exactly. What does that doctored report is? It

Robert Nordlund: 4:14

Right you will you do start with suspect but Yeah, again, it a lot of stuff goes back to one simple thing. And that is we suspect our manager of fraud, that is a problem in you don't say Start with a hard claim, because then all of a itself. And that's what the nancies in the world are out there. Who, who whoever they are these condominium associations who think money is missing, who think somebody reserve account sudden, that's a different problem. And we'll get to that is missing and suddenly operating accounts missing. They feel that it's missing. And because of they look at the report and the report is doctored. But it could be that the property manager may not want to give all the information out they wanted to give you part information. There might be reasons for it, but you don't know. So in other words, you can't start with suspect you have to have knowledge. in a moment. That's another claim. But I'm just thinking in my brain, you know, maybe they knew that the reserve fund was roughly 100 grand. Next month, they find out it's 50. And initially, this suspect something, but they don't realize that the manager gave the $50,000 deposit on the job to the roofer, according to, and they could just have forgotten that.

Kevin Davis: 5:27

And we talked about siphoning off a million dollars over a 10 year period with friendly vendors. Now, what does that mean to me? Well, I hear that you look it outside, and you see the puppy managed with brand new car, AC, his vendor buddies with brand new cars. So you go to the bank and say, Guess what, we should have more money in here. And that's how these things happen, Margaret, it's not a matter of if they suspect it. Because there are certain things that are inconsistent with their beliefs. And their beliefs are, that should be money, more money in here. It takes a brand new car for everybody go in and go, Wait a minute, let me check on my financial statement and make sure things are looking where they should. And wait, man, look at that, that landscaper that he that he said we should use has a brand new car? Yeah, what's going on with that? And then oh, my god, we're being ripped off. And what happens is that they go to the second session of board building executive session and says, and we think we have a problem, and then it leaks to everybody. If you go to the pool that you had in the pool, and somebody says, the manager ripped us off. We have a million dollars in reserve account, and it's gone, and we don't know what's happening. And the first one person may say, Well, we got new roofs, or we had to redo the pool. We remember, no, no, that's that what it is. They rip this off. You see he had a new car. And that's sort of rumor mill stars. So never rumor mill going. A You have no proof at all, that anything has happened. This is a problem for community associations, they start with a feeling instead of facts. Okay,

Robert Nordlund: 6:55

so the first thing to do is make sure that your feelings have substance, don't let it go to the rumor mill first. I like what you said go to Executive Session, contain the subject contain it, I guess the next steps would be advice of counsel, maybe getting a CPA involved to double check the books, those kinds of things. But

Kevin Davis: 7:15

please don't call the police. If you've really suspect if you have documented proof. Call the police and say I believe, you know, there's embezzlement and the police came help you go through it, you can say, well, what proof do you have? Yeah, and then you go through the proof. But please keep it at a executive session. Now the board has been accused of allowing this to happen, the board accuse of what allowing what to happen, the theft of the funds, or that allow all this information to get out and prosecuting this manager who may or may not have done anything wrong.

Robert Nordlund: 7:48

Boy, I don't, I'm almost stopped dead cold by thinking of all the problems that have created by maybe something as innocent as, like I said, just giving a deposit to the asphalt person for the big asphalt project or the roofer or those kinds of things, we have to be really careful, because sometimes we've spoken before, as reputations that there's false things going on. And when you're damaging someone's reputation, that's a big deal.

Kevin Davis: 8:20

That's a big deal, especially somebody again, if you might accuse you of stealing from the Association, because you got to pay you, let's say you charge $1,000. And all of a sudden this way you try 15 on your dollars. And obviously that means you cheat, you stole 500 off that association, you got a kickback $5. So we accusing you right there. So now all of a sudden, we've made the reputation now is and is being damaged. I'm not going to as an insurance person, let's say all of a sudden, you know, Nancy sends me that claim. It says Kevin, guess what? I'm submit a claim, you write my insurance policy, and I want a million dollars from you. Because I suspect Well, I can't I will say, Nancy, give me proof. Because I can't say that the manager stole the money. I can't do that. I can't, you gotta prove to me that the manager stole the money, and then I will reimburse you for those funds. But you need proof down. Okay. So it can be hard to get proof from Association if they are not doing their due diligence that doing the right job is indicated in monthly statements. They're not reviewing the monthly statements, that how they're going to know if that person had DOI anything over the past 10 years or not.

Robert Nordlund: 9:34

Yeah. And the there was one other telltale in this question about a siphoning 10 Or a million dollars over the last few years from friendly vendors, plural. It's always good practice to have two people co signing a check, things like that. And it's one thing to get a friendly roofer who wink wink. You can overcharge and they'll split the overage things like that. But the refer The asphalt pool that's going to be hard to do to stack so many unscrupulous people on the side of the manager. That's a damaging and difficult claim to be able to try to make now is

Kevin Davis: 10:12

difficult. What happens now you go back to if I'm the manager, and I did my job to the best of my ability. Now I may have even made a mistake I made I made a found that that Oh, guess what the doctored reports are, I should have give me the original. Here's the original and original say the same as the doctor reports is that doctor report, these are reports that I carved out some information that belong to the association, or if it wasn't your information, or it was my information, but here they are. Here's the here's the original, you could have just asked me for the original. Yeah, that would have been there. Yeah,

Robert Nordlund: 10:44

I think quite often when I was speaking to you, the root of the problem is doing your job and doing your job. Well. It may be that, let's say this roofer was going to charge $100,000 for a project. If you went out and got proposals, hopefully, all three proposals are in the same general range. And so it's not like you're hiring the most expensive, just crazy or without knowledge. It could be that, yeah, you got to $80,000 proposal $100,000 Proposal$120,000 proposal, and one of them has a slightly better warranty. Maybe one of them is able to start earlier, maybe one of them promises to clean up the place every day. So you're not left with a mess overnight. There's different reasons for different costs. But to just jump and think the worst of someone that's That's trouble. And I

Kevin Davis: 11:35

think the key to what we're talking about today is right nancies. First, we suspect our manager of fraud, that happens way too often. If you suspect then you do your due to Mexico or something like exactly diligence to find out. Why do you suspect why what happened? Okay, you got received doc reports. Did you talk to the manager about these doctored reports? No, I did not forget the induced talk to your manager. Now, if you go to the manager's office, and he's gone, it's closed. And nobody is there. Guess what, you got proof that your money is gone? You know, and that's what happens. Sometimes you walk into a place and you go, nobody's there. What happened? It could have been like they fled that happens. And then all sudden, you have proof that your manager stole your money, the manager could have been duped into getting the money he could have been conned out of the money, you know? And that's a different situation, he could come clean and say guess what? Yes, money is missing out he reserve account, because some I tapped my computer and had a transfer money went out and they right now my insurance will look into it. I have a cyber policy. So a lot of reasons why. But when you started accusing the manager, without adequate proof, you're now tapping into something else, he can come back after you and say, Wait a minute, I have a reputation here in this community, I have 30-40 associations, if you start saying that I am not capable of handling the money, or I'm not capable, or I've stealing money which even worse, then all of a sudden, I've been damaged. And it taught me a whole different set of liabilities, a whole new set of circumstances that you as a board member because you let the information leak out of Executive Session. Right?

Robert Nordlund: 13:14

Because it's one thing, this manager that's their career, it's their livelihood, they've got credentials, this is what they've been doing, and hopefully they enjoy doing it. And if you're accusing them of something that's gonna get them fired, lose their standing in the industry. What's this person going to do for a job? That's that's big trouble, we suspect our manager of fraud. Now the board is being accused of allowing this to happen. There are steps right, and we're talking about doing the right steps, being careful. You spoke about executive session. That's one good step. The other steps we've had episodes in the past, I think it was Russell Munds from community financials talking about getting those original statements. But Kevin, I like your idea that you know, it could have been just the manager took a screenshot just because it was simpler because the manager was trying to make it a friendly document for the board to read because manager knows the board's busy. Just be careful as you take those first few steps. You hire a manager because you want assistance. How much how far is a board responsible to go to review the managers work until the board's okay when the managers work all over again.

Kevin Davis: 14:27

Alright, so this is the issue here is two things a did the manager take the money or not? And if he did, what did you do? If you didn't take the money but there's money missing is something's wrong? What did you do? So it's two things you got to do. And you're right. You first thought what executive session is okay what's going on would happen with this money, and then you get the documentation. I have documentation here that says this there's 100,000 is 30,000 $10,000. Every single month over the past 10 years this unaccountable for, we see it right here on the counter. Before, okay, so we go to the manager, and a manager says we don't know. So now all of a sudden, you got to figure out okay, so we're going to say that the money is missing, the money is missing. And we have documentation that money's missing $10,000, we can pinpoint exactly. And we can see that somebody from the management office has done it. Okay, so maybe not been management, the owner of it, but it might be bill in the back that he's been the one, they've been siphoning off money by writing checks in the name of the association, and cashing them at a different bank.

Robert Nordlund: 15:32

Okay, interesting. That's, yeah, maybe the manager management company, but maybe someone else other than your manager, who is honestly trying to take care of things, there's so much money coming in so much money coming out, that it may be a little bit lost. And I'm starting to wring my hands just worried about how many ways that that can happen. But we don't want to say bad things about management companies, because they fuel associations, and boards, being able to lead an association while the manager does though the hard work. But the treasurer could

Kevin Davis: 16:05

But the treasurer could do the same thing. I mean, it's not just the manager, the treasurer has the same responsibility as also, the Treasurer can look at that reserve account million dollars and say, Guess what, I want to siphon off $10,000 every single month, and say, the reason why I'm doing because I'm buying, you know, light bulbs, I'm spending $1,000 A light bulbs every single month. And nobody's gonna question that if it's small enough, and below it enough, people will do certain things that will enable them to take that money. So two things happened. So number one, the Board of Directors actually got proof that the money has been stolen, and it does leak out. Let's say it leaks out that you know, one of the Executive Session, one of the board members talks to you, there are the children heard on the phone or something, and it leaks out. And now all of a sudden, the board has been accused allowing this to happen, what the poor did due diligence, they said, Yes, we understand this happened. We have an insurance policy, a crime policy, that we submitted a claim to a waiting to hear back from them right now. So now all of a sudden, now, if there's a lawsuit against the board, or if there's a claim made against the board, the board is filling it, we did our due diligence, we found out what's going on, you know, we looked at all the information, and it was hard for us to spot at the bank called us up and said we got this check in. That's different than the other checks. And then we found out and so we found that we call the police. Okay, we got a lawyer involved, we got an insurance carrier involved, we upset, we're hurt that the people who live there upset with us. But guess what we did our job. We did our due diligence, and we expect to get our money back from our insurance carrier, because we have a crime insurance policy, and is equal to what it should be is equal to three months assessments plus the reserve account, because guess we did our job properly. So we have the reserve account, and three months assessments. And so if the reserve account is missing, we will be reimbursed as soon as documentation go in town. So guess what? Unit owners we are okay, we're going

Robert Nordlund: 18:02

to be made whole? Well, I like what you said there that yes, the problem happened. Bad things do happen in life. But this board, they caught it in a timely manner. And they were well insured, they're working the steps through the problem. And they're going to come to successful resolution, it may mean that your reserve fund is low for a little while. And you may have to push the roof project off till next year for everything to clear and to get made whole. But it's what the board does, the board takes care of the common areas.

Kevin Davis: 18:32

And it goes back to what we always say, Robert, is that if you lower the temperature and not get too excited, not panic, and say wait a minute, we have an insurance policy that does exactly what we need it to do right now. And if we follow the formula that CABI coming Association Institute says which is we aren't we have a crime policy. That's three months assessments plus the reserve account. So the max people we believe that could walk away with the entire reserve account, what a max of three months assessments because they thought to get more than that, because the assessments keep going up. So if we do that, it's like steals it Guess what? We should be okay. And now that board is looks listening and feeling pretty good about it. Yeah,

Robert Nordlund: 19:11

because insurance is for accidents. And sometimes accidents happen. And sometimes those accidents are someone that you trusted, not being trustworthy. Well, let's take a quick break here to hear from one of our sponsors, and we'll be right back to follow up where we left off.

Paige Daniels: 19:28

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Robert Nordlund: 19:59

and We're back. Well, Kevin, you left us on kind of a high note where the insurance made the association whole, maybe it takes a little bit of time, but everything's gonna be okay. I love stories that end with, everything's going to be okay. But tell me about the situations where either the insurance doesn't make you whole, or you're not well insured. Tell me about the problems that are gonna continue to be a problem at the association

Kevin Davis: 20:24

is two problems Association has is that either it was something that wasn't insured, okay? That means they got death a big hole themselves, or assurance wasn't adequate enough. And what happens is, is that a lot of times, when you have these big claims that million dollar claim, the crime insurance limit is too low. Meaning that they say I want to 25,000 or 50,000, because I believe that the board is only some I can only steal the operating account, they will never touch the reserve account. Well, we don't know how much money is in reserve account? Well, we forget about the reserve account. And so they have a low limit, because guess what, it's cheaper to have a$50,000 limit, right and a $1.5 million limit.

Robert Nordlund: 21:08

So we go back to which comes back to budget. Yeah, yes.

Kevin Davis: 21:12

So you bought a cheaper limit, and you have an

Robert Nordlund: 21:13

cover. And I'm thinking that comes back to insurance person who sells you that lower limit and who doesn't understand community associations. So you pick somebody who says, Guess what, I got you a great deal. It's budget, if the only thing you're looking for is the lowest cost$50,000 limit, it was standard in the industry, because everybody has 50,000, not knowing that, if you are a community association specialist, you have to have three months assessments plus, to reserve and add the management management company to that policy, the Manage company has to be an additional because they control the money. Only. If you are a specialist involved in community association, you understand that? So number one, if you hire somebody who has knows nothing about it, you have a $50,000 limit and no manager insurance, you may go with someone who yes can say those words. It's standard in the industry, but may not know that. Maybe it's standard in their industry. Yes. Insuring. Association of brokers, Association of dentists, associations of research specialists, or association of soccer coaches, or whatever it is. What we're talking about is Association, community associations. That's it. If

Kevin Davis: 22:28

you look at what you're doing right now, your company, you may have a $50,000 crime policy, because most anybody can steal from you is$50,000. Yeah, you're not worried about it that much. Because you're gonna have a lot of cash there. But these boards have reserve accounts sitting out there that people want access to, that people want to steal, not only to managers, but you know, people who just want to target that information. And if you don't have an insurance policy that equals that amount, now you're looking, you're going to that reserve account, you go into the bank and saying, Oh, we don't have enough insurance to pay for this claim. The manager is not covered under here. The Treasurer may not be covered under there, it may have been stolen by somebody else, a third party, a criminal could have gotten involved in here. A cyber person could have gotten there. Yep. And the money is gone. Now, what do I do? And that's when it comes to issue because now all of a sudden, you'd have to replace that money in a replace that money, how special assessment because that roof still got to be done. You know. So now you're going to special assessment and now guess what's going to happen? Now the board's been excused allow this to happen to your board not gonna accuse you have doing it until Guess what? It impacts me. Right. So if the board loses that million dollars, the board's incompetent, they're stupid. Yeah, I can't believe a glitch didn't happen to me. You know, we all believe that. But then all of a sudden, when you want money come out my pocket. Okay, because that board is doing something wrong. Now. I'm suing the board, because the board allowed this to happen. They're not going to sue until it impacts me. Either you I have a special assessment or loan or something to pay for the roof, that somebody stole the money for?

Robert Nordlund: 24:07

Someone's going to Mexico on my roof money, and now it's going to cost me a$1,500 special assessment. And there's some bad guy in Cabo or Costa Rica livin' in Highlife on my money. Yeah. Kevin, I guess. I always assumed that if it was a criminal, the client, the bank, the whatever would be made whole, but I guess that's not true sometimes. Well, there, like you said there's two parts of it. One is was it inside job? Was someone sleeping when they should have been looking after it? And are you adequately insured even do you have do you have the insurance?

Kevin Davis: 24:45

Exactly. You have to be adequately insured? And most associations are not because they don't have the reserve money insured, okay? Meaning that that reserve account grows and expands they leave it alone, and they will worry about the $50,000 operating money that goes in and out that the treasurer may have access to, or the manager may have access to they don't realize that everybody is targeting the reserve account, because that's where all the money is at. It has to be adequately insured.

Robert Nordlund: 25:15

That's the big money. Yeah. And I bet, you know, I didn't know. Of course, I am on the reserves a side, not the condominium association side. But we see a reserve fund over the years, and it is low, it grows, then you spend it, it grows, and they spend it. And I bet there's so many associations out there and hope there's board members out there thinking oh, gee, we should check because it, they may have set the reserve fund limit at $50,000. But now they've got $275,000, because they're growing it in anticipation of a roof job or an asphalt job. And that number that was totally fine. Five or 10 years ago, is not totally fine today.

Kevin Davis: 25:56

All right. Let me give you example of a million dollar claim. This is million dollar claim is a huge co op in New York City, they reserved a lot of money over the years to repair to replace all the fans inside this, you know, in his stove, and stove, they have these little fans in there. So it's time to repair, replace, replace every last one, I'm in association, this 1.3 $1.4 million. There it is in reserves. And they gave them$1.3 million to the manager at one individual manager, that one site manager and the person who was supposed to install them gone and dissapeared with the money. So $1.5 million has gone. They add a quarter of million dollar crime policy. Okay. They saw that money's missing. And he saw they'll click on So a quarter million dollars with check was written. The manager was in shock to because imagining it anything of it. The owners, a whole match company didn't get anything. One individual manager who lived at the Association, and the contractor got $1.5 million. And they found out because they couldn't find any advance is that what happened to when he got started the job? Yeah, they went and looked in everything. There's no fans there, and the money's gone. What happens now, insurance did their job. You had you didn't have a $1.5 million client policy at 250,000 client policy because that money grew and went from 100, quarter million to 1.5 million. Go now and has it as it should, as it should. So now you end up with a lawsuit, a lawsuit against the management company and a board of directors because just like Nancy said, because they accusing it allowing it to happen. Now, what happens now is a lawsuit comes in and you're directing off liability will defend him. But the judge may say it is not the board members fault that had happened. The board did their due diligence they did the job, you're out of you know, you got to forget another way to get into money other than insurance. In other words, the judge if the judge says there's a JIT you, you did your due diligence, but there's still a demand against you have$1.5 million, we will pay the demand. But the judge may not say that. The judge may say you did your job, fortunately. And you still got to figure out a way to get that one at $1 million. This has happened a while ago. This is something I just saw myself. Yep. And going. Wow. It's it gets complicated.

Robert Nordlund: 28:20

Yeah, it gets complicated, but makes me think that in life, sometimes bad things happen. Sometimes you have a car wreck. You know, Kevin, there's times when I get an expensive repair on my car, I spend a couple $1,000 on my car. And I think now's not a good day to get in an accident. Because not just spent money on the car. Sometimes bad things happen. And if the board is at least doing their responsible job, it minimizes their exposure, like you said, DNO insurance will defend them and find out that you know, bad things happen. It's unfortunate, but he had the bottom line is maybe shoulda, woulda coulda been better insured. Is that the summary here today? That's a reminder to our board members to look at your level of insurance.

Kevin Davis: 29:12

I wouldn't say this, talk to a community association specialist and say, I'm concerned about the by reserve account. We have a lot of money here, evaporated income, how do I best protect this from a loss by a vendor, a homeowner, a cyber specialist. There's a lot of things out there who want my money, I want protection from it. And let that be up to me. The specialists dislike you know, you want people to go to you and say you know what, I got a roofer how long that roofs going to last I feel is going to last another year or so. But what do you think? I feel $50,000 For my crime, is it good enough? What do you think know? How much of your reserve account it should be equal to the reserve account plus the operating account for three months? And then you should be okay. If you did that. Guess what? $1.5 million of missing here's yout check, You don't have to worry about

Robert Nordlund: 30:02

that is a it's unfortunate, but it's a happy ending. And I like that. Well, Kevin, it's always great talking with you. Any closing thoughts to add at this time?

Kevin Davis: 30:12

No, just specialist specialists specialists make your informed decision by looking at a specialist that understands it, go to your lawyer, go to a police officer, and go to your insurance specialists. Yeah, sometimes this happens. And

Robert Nordlund: 30:27

it starts with budget, having made the right decisions and being okay with spending a little bit more to be well insured. And there's so many other good decisions go from those little decisions that you make as a board member, yet the little decisions that add up to prevent you from having a big problem. Well, we hope you learned some HOA insights from our discussion today that helps you bring common sense to your common area. We look forward to having you join us for another great episode. Next week.

Announcer: 30:54

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