Mark Thatcher: 0:00

Obviously, the more money that's in a reserve account, the more it could be earning. But one of the really cool things about what we actually build on our software is we can take any account, regardless of the size, because what happens is you get advisors that get a deluge of too many accounts, and they can't keep track of the maturities. They can't keep track of everything. What we did is we built the software not only for obviously, the community managers for the board members, but also for the advisors. So it keeps track of all the bonds. It keeps track of when things are coming due. In that way we can take care of it regardless of the size. So we're happy to help out anyone that needs help. And it's really focusing on that reserve account that may not be, you know, earning you a whole lot of interest. HOA Insights

Announcer: 0:38

is brought to you by five companies that care about board members, association, insights and marketplace Association, reserves, community, financials, Hoa invest and Kevin Davis, Insurance Services, you'll find links to their websites and social media in the show notes.

Robert Nordlund: 0:53

Welcome back to Hoa, insights, common sense, for common areas. I'm Robert Nordlund, and I'm here today for episode number 96 with two special guest experts in investment that we heard from back in episode number 80. Jessica McConnell and Mark Thatcher are both veterans of the financial services industry with over 20 years in the business after being exposed to the specific needs of community associations, they created HOA invest a company designed to specifically care for and manage reserve funds for community associations that in itself, is a subject that warms my heart, taking a heavy responsibility off the shoulders of managers and volunteer board members. You can find their company at HOA invest.com we're pleased to announce that HOA invest has recently joined our podcast here as one of our sponsors, helping us encourage and equip board members all across the country. Well, we know you're facing financial pressures, and we know the siren song of high investment returns is running around in your brain, so we asked Jessica and Mark back on the program today to address the issue of risk versus reward. This is a follow up to episode number 95 with Carol Lawrence, one of our featured bored hero episodes. And if you missed that episode or any of our prior episodes, take a moment after today's program to listen on our website, www HOA insights.org or watch on our YouTube channel, but better yet, subscribe from any of the major podcast platforms so you don't miss any future episodes. Well, those of you watching on YouTube can see the HOA insights mug that I have here, one of my favorites, talking about a deteriorated building, and you can get that from our merch store, which you can browse through from our HOA insights.org website, or the link in the show notes, you'll find we have some great free stuff there, like board member zoom backgrounds for your online meetings, and some special items for sale, like this mug. So go to the merch store, download a free zoom background, take a moment, look around, find something that interests you, and if you see a mug that you like, email me at podcast at reserve study.com with your name, shipping address and mug choice, mentioning episode 96 mug giveaway. And if you're the 10th person to send me that email. I'll ship that mug to you free of charge. We enjoy hearing from you responding to the issues you're facing at your association. So if you have a hot topic, a crazy story, or a question you'd like us to address, you can contact us at 805-203-3130, or email us at podcast at reserve study.com one of those questions that I alluded to earlier was actually from my niece Tricia, who asked why they couldn't invest their reserves in some high performing stocks to earn more interest for their association. I gave my regular answer, but want to record a conversation with Jessica and mark here on the program so you could hear from the experts. Let's start with Jessica. What would you have said to my niece Tricia? Well, I think

Jessica McConnell: 4:07

the most important part is to really understand how a fiduciary like yourself as a board member or us as investment advisors, are obligated to be responsible for other people's money. So what does that mean? So what is a fiduciary? And that is one of the conversations as we're talking about stocks, and all of that for associations is risk, and most importantly, it's adding a lot of risk. As a fiduciary, we're always wanting to act in the best interest of the community, maintain that transparency. So what is going on that accountability? How do I know someone's actually investing the money. What are they investing into and really, most importantly, how do we protect and grow it safely? Let's

Robert Nordlund: 4:48

expand that a little bit. Board members faces challenges with communication. They are receiving. It feels like a lot of money from the homeowners, and the homeowners are always nervous about. What they're doing, but it may be a little easier for the board to point around and say, Hey, we got a new landscaping company, and they're finally taking good care of the grounds. Don't the grounds look better than they did last year? And everyone can nod their heads and say, Yeah, okay, good. You're taking good care of my money. Yes, the landscaper is doing a good job in the pool. We expanded the pool hours. Cost a little more money to have a little more hours of pool use, or heating the pool, whatever it is, sometimes physical things. Board members have the ability to communicate what's happening with money. But then there's the mystery of the money that's in the bank. Can you really see it? How do you know? Is it okay? Has it gone away? Are the board members putting it in there? What are we

Jessica McConnell: 5:44

in? Yeah, what are we in? Are we in Bitcoin? Are we in gold? And that was really one of the biggest things for our application, Hoa invest, and working with the boards is offering that transparency, as well as ensuring the cash is an idol. More than not, we find a lot of investments have not been made. They've matured. They're sitting there sometimes three to six months, sometimes up to a year. And the reason for that could be

Robert Nordlund: 6:07

doing nothing, doing doing

Jessica McConnell: 6:09

nothing, and a lot of the times, is getting to it, getting a board meeting, to meet quorum, not having somebody that's actually tracking it. On top of it, the community managers have a lot of jobs, right? The board members are volunteers. So having somebody that is like our company, with our licensed fiduciary advice advisors actually going in and telling you this is coming due before it matures, what we're recommending you do with it before it matures. And actually having every single dollar working for you is a huge advantage. Yes, we have board members that are extremely educated and smart. They may be a CFO, they could be a CPA, they could be Investment Advisors like ourselves, but having somebody that you can pass that fiduciary liability off to to ensure that your community is your community, you're living there, but you're not responsible to ensure that the money is being safe and handled appropriately is a huge burden for them, and we take that on instead of them. I think the number

Mark Thatcher: 7:10

one problem that you know I always look at the second law of thermal dynamics is entropy, where you have order slowly devolving into chaos. And what happens when you have entropy into, enter into any type of system is you could have something that's really good, for example, like, for example, you go out there, and last year, we were buying 5.5% T bills with the tax equivalent yield to 6% in the state of California, and, you know, 5.85 in Florida, or whatever the case may be. But as soon as that T bill comes due, at the end of 12 months, then what happens? Entropy comes in, and all of a sudden disorder comes in. You have different board members, and you go from being the very smartest you know on top of it, CFO, to not that, you know, an art director, or whatever the case may be, but it really isn't on top of the finances. And nobody steps in there, and all of a sudden it goes from 5.5% down to point two 5% and when you have that come in there, all of a sudden you don't have that compounding effect working for you. And so that's what our software does. It helps keep track of it. It keeps the board in line with making sure that their investments are always reinvested. And that's one of the biggest problems that we see, bar none, is you go from great a great investment to no investment, then

Jessica McConnell: 8:19

you're having all of the inflation that we've had for the last couple years, what are you doing if you're sitting there in cash, you're actually losing money, and what does that mean for your association in all of the assessments and your upcoming dues that we're going to start looking at our budget? How is that going to affect you know, your fellow homeowner sitting right next to you who is maybe on a fixed income,

Robert Nordlund: 8:42

right? Okay, I got two things on my brain. I want to get back to the role Jessica, you led off with talking about fiduciary I'm thinking you may be lucky. You may have a manager who is really a wizard at financial things, and maybe that's their pet strength, and so they they do a good job of handling that, but that would be rare. I would think, I think most managers are overworked. They work hard, and they're not paid all that well. I've got to praise managers, but they are distracted, and they're not who I would think as a class are good financial managers, and the same with board members. You may get lucky, and you may have someone who thinks in numbers, but that person is going to cycle off the board. And even so, really is that person the right person? Does that person have any independence? And so we're talking about the role. And so do you really want a board member? Do you really want a manager assigned with that responsibility? I think there should be gravity pulling you away, so that someone is Jessica, like you say, someone has the job, the responsibility of taking care of your

Jessica McConnell: 9:57

money and long term, long term. Community Planning is what we call that. And the biggest thing is we as associate, as advisors. There we have advisors that are on for a very long time, and if, when we're not doing the job, let's say, God forbid, when we retire. Obviously we're young, so we have long time to do that, we're going to have other advisors that are licensed to do that stepping in our place. So when we have board members, those board turnovers can happen quite often. Let's say someone moves, God forbid someone passes away. They've been the treasure. These are things we have to plan for, and when you have a professional like ourselves doing that job, we're able to continue that strategic planning with your reserve investments. We're looking at what is, you know, what is that going to be in 20 and 30 years? I can actually make that response, because we're planning that, and we're going to have somebody in that seat doing that specified, specific job to make sure that that funding is there for you. And I think it's

Mark Thatcher: 10:54

interesting, because you can even look at like, for example, let's say you do have a good financial advisor, and there are a lot of good financial advisors out there. There's no question about it. There's a lot of great ones. But the problem is, is all of a sudden you have a financial advisor that's managing so many different things they don't really understand necessarily. You know the 1120, 1120, H HOAs. And so we really do specialize in this space to make sure that we do have that ability to go in there 90 days before a CD comes due or a T bill comes due, we're putting the notifications out there. I mean, it was so bad when, when we started this whole entire thing, we were like, You know what? Let's go out there and let's just start managing the HOAs. What software is out there? There's none that we actually had to build the software because it was such a big problem within the industry from even a financial advisory standpoint, yep. And

Jessica McConnell: 11:39

then give that access to the board members, to the community managers, to the controller or the accounting team at those management companies. And that way, they can see it. They can reconcile it on a daily basis. They're not guessing if something is already approved, if we have a pending investment recommendation that's already been signed, because most importantly, there are states that have regulations that require signatures for investments. We're already notifying those management companies, those controllers, that accounting team, what instructions are already placed per position. So they're not going to go and say, Did we already vote on that? They can already see it every single day, which is critical.

Robert Nordlund: 12:14

Yeah. Well, again, I get back to the physical things. You can see that the asphalt was sealed. You can see that they got new patio furniture. I hope they're looking at the reserve study, and they know that the roof is gradually getting older and older and older, and in a year or two, there's going to be a big roof project. Those are big fiscal things, but the managing your money is something that happens, if not daily, at least you need to be on top of that on a monthly basis. And there's so many distracting things going on at community associations, whether you're the manager or the board, and that's a big asset that deserves someone's attention Absolutely. Well, let me You said another thing that I wanted to catch on. And we all know there's inflation out there, and inflation is moving ahead and ahead and ahead and ahead. And that has its work, and I'm now the reserve study provider on the total value of the roof project. And let's say it's $100,000 roof project. So every year the roof is getting a little more expensive by$100,000 plus inflation plus inflation compounding. But if you only have 50 grand allocated for the roof, and even if you're getting strong interest, you're earning interest only on the cash on deposit. And we have sometimes treasurers say, Well, if I invest it in low return safe investments, I'm going to lose ground. And I said you're going to lose ground anyway, because you're only earning interest on the actual cash that you have in the bank. It's never going to be a case where you're going to keep up with inflation just by the interest earnings. So do you have something to add on that? Yeah,

Mark Thatcher: 14:02

absolutely. So what's really interesting is, inflation is obviously a really bad thing. Nobody likes inflation. Costs go up. But one of the interesting things about inflation is, how does the Fed fight inflation? It raises interest rates. So when you see the interest rates go up, for example, you saw a lot of inflation. We're talking about getting, you know, last year we were 5.5% on T bills, which is the definition of the risk free rate of return. If you look up, what does risk free rate of return mean? That's a T bill rate. So if you get a 5.5% right now, you're getting right around 5.3% which is, or, I'm sorry, 4.3% which is about as

Jessica McConnell: 14:39

of today's, yeah, last year. Right now it's about 4.3 on a 12 month.

Robert Nordlund: 14:43

Okay, so that's that's a

Mark Thatcher: 14:44

moving target. It's a moving target. But as inflation moves up, you've got, you can also get higher interest rates with less risk. Einstein called compounding interest the eighth wonder of the world, and he also said, supposedly, now it's he also said the most powerful thing in the world is. Compounding interest. Now this is Mr. E equals MC squared, so I don't know. I tried to find that. No, that was a little bit dubious. But nonetheless, what does compounding interest mean? Let's say, for example, you had a million dollars sitting in a reserve account, and you go out and buy a 5% T bill on that. At the end of the year, you have$1,050,000 the next year, you don't have just a million dollars to invest. You have$1,050,000 to invest. And that extra $50,000 now gets to reinvest. Let's say again, it stayed at 5% and now that 50,000 is earning an extra $2,500 and so it just stacks on itself. And so no matter what happens, the most important thing you can do is get rid of the entropy. You got to make sure that you go in there and reinvest that money. You have to reinvest it at these interest rates and let it continually compound, let it stack. Do what Einstein said, one of my favorite cheats in the entire financial industry is the rule of 72 the rule of 72 is a basic mathematical thing where a lot of financial guys can look really smart, and they did math in their head really quickly. But what the rule of 72 means is, in essence, if you go get a 7.2% interest rate, let's say you get you make 7.2% interest on your money over a 10 year period, then your money will double. So you put in a million, it grows to 2 million, right? So conversely, if you get 10% on your money, so if you put in a million, it only takes 7.2 years to double your money. So the rule of 72 is an easy number on compounding interest. But the most important thing that you do on compounding interest is you have to reinvest. It has to constantly be reinvested if you only get 3.6% again, half of 7.2 if you get 3.6% on your money over a 20 year period, right? And so that's the rule of 72 but it only works if you don't let your money all of a sudden not being reinvested. The most important thing you can do is reinvest your money. And the way that we're reinvesting that money is we're doing it in a way that is actually more safe than you know. If you had $3 million that wasn't FDIC insured, because the limits are only$250,000 we can spread out and buy a lot of CDs by 1t bill. Unfortunately, we have a lot of government debt out there, but that government, but we have $38 trillion guaranteed by the federal government where we can get you those interest rates, and you can't let your money just all of a sudden go to like, all of a sudden go to zero. As far as the interest rates are concerned, you have to all of a sudden be reinvesting, yeah, and

Jessica McConnell: 17:35

that's reinvesting when that interest comes in, right? So a lot of the time, let's say you have something that pays every six months. It could be a CD, it could be a Treasury note. Could be something like that. We're immediately taking, let's say of that million dollars, we made 50,000 but we got that $25,000 in six month increments. That money is going to work immediately as it hits the account. So if you're putting it to work and you're still again, that a million still working for you, that compounding number for six months until that next payment comes in, is going to add up over time. It's critical to be on top of it every day.

Robert Nordlund: 18:10

Yeah, you got me thinking of an automobile race where every once in a while they run out of gas, and they have to pull into pit road and they stop. They literally stop, and the other cars are still going around the racetrack, and they're trying as fast as possible to get fuel and get back on the racetrack. And what you're talking about is more like what we see with, I think, military airplanes, where it's mid air refueling, where they're keeping going, they're never having to pull off and stop while other things are moving around.

Mark Thatcher: 18:42

That's exactly right. In fact, that's why we had to actually build the software around it, because of all the notifications that come in and all the things you have to do when you're talking about other people's money, OPM, when you're talking about that, you have to make sure that there's a lot of notifications. In some cases, there are signatures, and there's all these different things. So what happens is, you're pulling off into pit row. If you're a regular financial advisor, you're waiting for the next board meeting. You're waiting for this. You're waiting for that. All of a sudden, you're sitting there in cash for six, 912, months, and you're not invested, whereas we actually built the software so that we can always keep you invested, so that we can have that eighth wonder of the world compounding interest working for you continually. And so we actually had to build a system that would get as little that would take the entropy out of the system, so that we can really keep you invested. Nice.

Robert Nordlund: 19:27

Well, I think this is a good time to take a quick break, so let's hear now from one of our generous sponsors, after which we'll be back for some more common sense for common areas tired

Unknown: 19:37

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Robert Nordlund: 20:14

and we're back. Well during the break, we were talking about the significance of interest and even one point of interest how a little bit can make a big difference. And Jessica, you were telling your story,

Jessica McConnell: 20:27

yeah, it was actually we were talking to Brian, one of your Colorado associates who he was talking to us. And it was every 1% increase in interest income for your reserve account, it actually helps to ensure about a six to 7% reduction in the future dues for each Association. And I believe, you know, from your side, you guys also did the analysis, which is where he came up with that narrative. But for us, that is really just the rule of 72 and we were just talking kind of briefly, amongst us on the break, is the whole benefit of that 7.2% being just a little bit higher is just taking out all of that of efficiency and all that idle cash and ensuring that it's always invested as close to always right as we can be, but really making sure that that additional 1% drastically improves the reduction in potential special assessments. Think

Mark Thatcher: 21:20

about it mathematically for a second. If you have a 1% increase that's six to 7% future dues that you don't have to charge. A 2% is two times six to seven, that's, you know, 12 to 14% and a 3% increase in interest is obviously 18 to 21% reduction in future due increases. So it's a really big thing, because it's a multiplying effect,

Robert Nordlund: 21:41

right? And that's a lot of leverage. And we're talking about our audience here as board members, and they are hard at work. They're busy. They're already essentially almost overwhelmed with enough projects. And we're talking about something really good here. Do we have some trigger points, some things that we can give them as homework to see if it is time for them to think that, yeah, maybe I should offload this to an investment professional. Any any good homework points? Yeah,

Jessica McConnell: 22:07

I mean one being, you know, if you're approaching that FDIC limit. So there are programs available, right? So we want to stay under$250,000 what does that mean? That's not just on your reserve account. I want to make that clear. So let's say you have an operating account and a reserve account at one bank, you have to be under that $250,000 threshold on both accounts combined. So making sure that you're looking at all of your financials, not just one side of the balance sheet, also making sure that if you do go over that threshold, what can you do for an option? We work with a lot of banks. We have great relationships, collaborating with the banks, and what we do is kind of take that excess reserve money that they're going to not need in the next, I'd say, six months to a year, and put it to work with us for CDs and treasuries, and have that functionality of being able to move it via ACH back and forth from our Schwab account, which is where we custodian, with our preferred custodian, move that money back and forth seamlessly. So when you do have a project coming up, you're one making sure your money is insured and working, but also you're not going to exceed that threshold at the banking side. And

Mark Thatcher: 23:14

it's also important to keep in mind one of the other things you can do, just about safety, not necessarily interest rates, is there's something called an ICS account at the banks. And banks are awesome. We absolutely love the banks. The banks are such an important integral part of everything that we do. But ask about an ICS account, because if you do go over the 250,000 they do have options where, if you're it's in an operating account. We don't, we don't really want to mess with any operating accounts or anything like that. The day to day spending. There's no one better than the banks that taking care of that. But ask about an ICS account if you do have to go over the 250,000 so that you so that your HOA can continue to be insured. Okay?

Robert Nordlund: 23:51

And I know there's going to be a lot of treasurers out here and board members who are wondering, what ballpark are we in? I feel like I want to assign them the task of at the next board meeting, find out how much interest they are earning, and if they're earning what, what would be a good commercial range at this point in time. So

Mark Thatcher: 24:11

right now, the risk free rate of return on T bills is 4.2% and it's 4.2 4.3% right around there for a one year T bill. Now, keep in mind we had this conversation last time about T bills. T bills versus CDs. T bills, you don't pay any state income tax on it. So in the state of California, for example, that's a 4.7% tax equivalent yield. So really, if you're looking at it, what our software does is we go in there and before we ever purchase about 60% of the time, CDs are better for us to purchase on our Schwab platform than T bills right now. T bills have been better. T bills have been better for the past 18 months because the variability in interest rates. So if you're not earning, you know, 4.7% if it's a CD, or 4.2% if it's if it's a T bill, then then you could be doing better.

Robert Nordlund: 25:00

I got it so if you're if you find out that you're earning well 0% on your checking and 1.5% in your reserves account, then you should be thinking, we are almost in pit row. We we can do a whole lot better than this. How significant is that on a literally cash basis. We have some of our audience here who are small associations, and they have a reserve fund that is$52,000 is it as significant for them as it is for an association with 520 or 5.2 million? Obviously,

Mark Thatcher: 25:38

the more money that's in a reserve account, the more it could be earning. But one of the really cool things about what we actually build on our software is we can take any account, regardless of the size, because what happens is you get advisors that get a deluge of too many accounts, and they can't keep track of the maturities. They can't keep track of everything. What we did is we built the software not only for, obviously the community managers, for the board members, but also for the advisors. So it keeps track of all the bonds. It keeps track of when things are coming due. In that way we can take care of it regardless of the size. So we're happy to help out anyone that needs help. And it's really focusing on that reserve account that may not be, you know, earning you a whole lot of interest, yeah,

Jessica McConnell: 26:15

because that goes back to that conversation, that one extra percent is going to reduce those dues for that community six to 7% year over year now.

Robert Nordlund: 26:24

Well, if you have a choice of getting some help from the bank to pay reserves or not, I would say, Yeah, let's have the bank pay some of our reserves. I started thinking for that association with only 50 some $1,000 in the bank. Well, the roof project may only be 25,000 you know, everything is scaled down. So if, if they're only earning $500 instead of $5,000 in interest, well, that's fine, because their expenses are proportionately less. But still, you want to get on the race track and start getting interest, earning as much as you can, as long as you can, and not sitting on pit row all those kinds of things. So the triggers if your reserves are earning something low, 0123, maybe you should start thinking about an investment professional. If your combined checking and reserves are at or above 250,000 time to start thinking about an investment professional. But again, I have a heart for our board member audience. They are hard working volunteers, and the last thing they need is people asking and wondering, are you taking care of our X amount of dollars in reserves? It's hard to point at like the swimming pool or the asphalt or the new paint or the landscaping. And maybe one nice thing to be able to say, we got someone on that, I think that's

Mark Thatcher: 27:48

absolutely true. I think what's really neat about it is like, Take, for example, just the word fiduciary, if you're if you're a board member, you are a fiduciary to that board, and all of a sudden, you're a fiduciary in so many different areas, and no one's really paying attention to the financial side, or if they are, they may be cycling out. And there's a new one that comes in there. One of the things about fiduciary that you have to remember is it's not only just doing what's best, it's also the fiduciary liability of not doing what was best. And so when you talk about the fiduciary getting it wrong, and so we are actually fiduciaries, you can offload that fiduciary care on the investment side to us, we will call ourselves fiduciaries. We're more than just broker dealers, and so as a fiduciary, we come in and we take the liability and say, Yes, we are going to invest in the highest, safest yield, whether it's a CD or a T bill, we're going to make sure that it's reinvested for you. And whatever happens if all of a sudden, you know, your treasurer gets sick and he's in the hospital, it's someone is still taking care of it, someone's paying attention to it, someone's doing tax equivalent yield to see what is better, CDs or T bills. Someone's taking care of it 90 days in advance. And so that's what we really do offer in our services and in making sure that we don't see on pit road. I love that analogy. You don't just pull off and gas up for the next six months and then lose that ability and that compounding effect and the eighth wonder the world is not working for you.

Robert Nordlund: 29:08

Well, Jessica and Mark, I look at the time and I want to thank you for joining us today. It's always great to have your insights and your expertise, any closing thoughts to add at this time. I

Jessica McConnell: 29:18

really just think most importantly is that sometimes we have those board members that they know they're fiduciaries and they like to be involved. We love working with you too directly so you are educated. We understand that we respect that you're doing this as a volunteer. We want to make sure that you feel included. So please, just knowing, having that outsource ability, coming to us, working with us, we're all doing it together to make these communities better. And the

Mark Thatcher: 29:43

last thing I'd say is we would love to talk to you directly so on. If you have an executive board meeting and you'd like us to do a presentation and actually do the analysis for you, we will 100% do the analysis. We will show you exactly where you're at. We'll show we'll do the comparison for you and say, Okay, here's your current interest rate. Here's what. The market rates are. So if you give us an opportunity to be on a board meeting, we're happy to jump on a zoom call. We're definitely set up for lots of zoom calls. As you can see, we'd love to, you know, take 10 minutes an executive board meeting and show you how we can possibly help you. Well, Mark,

Robert Nordlund: 30:15

I was gonna say that's a pretty bold move, because we have, we have a lot of listeners in this audience, so they may take you up on that, but we

Mark Thatcher: 30:25

have 25 financial advisors that are directly can help every single one of you directly and run the analysis. So we're fantastic,

Robert Nordlund: 30:33

good, good, good. I'm glad to hear it's more than just you and Jessica, because I'm talking 1000s here. Yeah, okay, well, if you'd like to get in touch with anyone at HOA invest, and indeed, more than just mark and Jessica, you can get in contact via their website, which is HOA invest.com Well, we hope you learned some HOA insights from our discussion today that helps you bring common sense to your common area. We look forward to having you join us for another great episode next week. You

Announcer: 31:03

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