Kevin Davis: 0:00

When it comes to maintaining association with climate collecting money, you're gonna have to be consistent and you have to be stable, because we talk about money. Okay? People get upset.

Announcer: 0:10

HOA Insights is brought to you by five companies that care about board members, association, insights and marketplace Association, reserves, community, financials, Hoa invest and Kevin Davis Insurance Services, you'll find links to their websites and social media in the show notes.

Robert Nordlund: 0:26

Hi. I'm Robert Nordlund of association reserves, and I'm

Kevin Davis: 0:29

Kevin Davis of Kevin Davis Insurance Services. And this is HOA Insights, where we promote common sense for common

Robert Nordlund: 0:36

areas. Welcome to Episode 102 where we're again speaking with insurance expert and regular co host, Kevin Davis, to make sure you have all the right information at the right time to make the right decisions for the future of your association. Every week, we want your association to benefit from the stories, insights and answers we're able to share here. This helps you our podcast audience, to be well informed and to be well prepared for the challenges that you address every time you think about leading your association forward. Well, last week's episode number 101, featured a great interview with Steve Horvath as you noticed a passionate advocate for board member transparency and accountability. If you missed that episode or any other prior episode, take a moment after today's program to listen from our podcast website, Hoa insights.org or watch on our YouTube channel, but better yet, subscribe from any of the major podcast platforms so you don't miss any future episodes, and those of you watching on YouTube. Can see the HOA insights mug that I have here. I don't want to tip it too much. Got mine also, Kevin has one too. Yes, you can get one of these from our merch store, which you can browse through from our HOA insights.org website, or the link in our show notes, you'll find we have some great free stuff there, like board member zoom backgrounds, and some specialty items for sale, like the mugs that we're showing. Go to the merch store, download a free zoom background, take a moment, look around, find the mug you'd like and email me at podcast@reservestudy.com with your name, shipping address, mug choice, mentioning episode 102, mug giveaway, and if you're the 10th person to email me, I'll ship that mug to you. Actually, my staff will ship that mug to you free of charge. Well, we enjoy hearing from you responding to the issues you're facing at your association. So if you have a hot topic, a crazy story, or a question you'd like us to address. You can always contact us at 805-203-3130, or email us at podcast@reservestudy.com now today's episode comes from a question submitted by Jim from Denver, Colorado, who stated, I'm confused. I know we're supposed to enforce rules consistently, but some just don't matter. Plus, we don't want to spend all our time enforcing rules. Where's the happy medium? And fortunately, Kevin, this is in your wheelhouse. So where do we start on this one? All

Kevin Davis: 3:15

right, this is definitely in our wheelhouse, because we, as you know, for years, we've been talking is, all we do is protect board members from liability, and the number one area that I hate spending claims on and defending are when you have unequal enforcement of the documents. And this, and this is the problem that most people believe in community associations, that the rules that outline in documents are suggestions. This is how we should behave, but we have a choice. Okay, okay, so we got to start from that point. Right off the bat, they believe there are rules or suggestions that they have a choice. You

Robert Nordlund: 3:53

know, what's I'm thinking now? I'm distracted. Uh, wasn't that a Captain Sparrow line in one of the Pirates of the Caribbean movies. I think he said, Yeah, that's a problem. I think they're more just guidelines.

Kevin Davis: 4:08

Yeah, guidelines, exactly, and that's But that's it, and that's what it all boils down to. And this is the problem, when you have guidelines and we have suggestions, and this would always leads to, is that, how do you decide which ones are right or wrong? This is the key. It's three reasons why I decided right or wrong me as the president Association. Number one is based on ignorance, okay, I didn't know. You know, nobody told me the rules were that way. Number two, arrogance. You know what? It's okay to do it. You know they're not gonna bother you anyway, or plan on stupidity. What? Well, you mean, I can't do that, and so that's why the rules are there. Walk

Robert Nordlund: 4:48

me through this, because you want to have, we have a lot of people living in in a condominium in a small, physical space. Okay? So there's going to be tension even. In a big plan development. Hoa, they may not, you may not be tight together, but you're all sharing the economies of the association. We work together for the road, the guard house, the clubhouse, and you are together in community. So you need, you need rules to say, this is what we're all about, and this is okay, and this is not okay, the boundaries, the guardrails. So you said three things, ignorance of rules. I understand that arrogance where, yeah, they don't apply to me. Ooh, I'm new. I'm new here. I'm on the board. I have the biggest house, I have the best view. They don't apply to me. And stoke number three, stupidity.

Kevin Davis: 5:43

Stupidity is the worst one, because that means they know the rules. They were ignorant in the rules. Sometimes they they conflict, but, but what happens is that they end up doing something. They push their chest out, you know what? I finally towed that car away, that's been parking and visitors parking, and as soon they pull that car in there, boom. I told it away. I called a tow truck up. I told him I was tired of doing him. Did you get proper notification? Well, I told him to stop doing him. Well, you know, you got to give notification. Yep, I got tired of giving a notification. I was

Robert Nordlund: 6:11

thinking about arrogance on the side of the rule breaker, but no, you're talking about arrogance on the side or the Mercer board. This

Kevin Davis: 6:21

is this? Okay? I get rules or suggestions and guidelines. Okay? I'm the president of association. Okay? Now there are five areas that I've notified that we that they break the rules all the time. Okay? There are pets, parking, pool, and I mean pool, I mean all amenities, not just the

Robert Nordlund: 6:41

pool, but but noise, yeah, I like your alliteration. Noise,

Kevin Davis: 6:46

okay. And signs those, those like the five ones that we you go, Oh my god, I can't believe because they look at the rules as suggestions. End up costing me 10,$15,000 to defend it. And that's the problem. Okay?

Robert Nordlund: 7:00

Now I understand some. Well, let's go back a few months. We had an election, and I understand some people are adamant for Biden and adamant for Trump and their neighbors. They share offense, and it's one thing to say I'm really for change, or I'm really for the current administration, whatever you I get that. I don't mind someone, you know, having an opinion, but wow, for it to cost $10,000 because you get into a spat about a sign, but think about

Kevin Davis: 7:31

it. Okay, three different things, okay, ignorance. Wow, they have signs out. Am I should I say anything? Do I leave it alone? What rule is there for me? For I'm a board president. I don't know what to do with the signs out there. You're right. You got two signs, yeah, one on this. I don't know what to do. So that's plain ignorance, because you don't do anything. Doing nothing is a decision. Okay? Now you go to arrogance, right? I like this guy, not the other guy. I'm pulling up all the other guys things because they're in violation because of the size these guys are their size, illegal. The other guys have banners. They fit the requirements of the banner. Okay, stupidity, you

Robert Nordlund: 8:09

got me rubbing my head here. I'm thinking now of boards who say, Okay, what? What are the colors? Let's say they're Trump. People is Trump? Oh, Trump is red, right? Yeah, okay. And so they're saying red signs are okay. Let's make a rule that red signs are okay. You can't be doing that. You've got to be this is fairly part of

Kevin Davis: 8:26

it, stupidity. Part of it is, say this stupidity. They say that those are signs and the others are banners. Okay, the blue signs had to be banners. Look at they craft a little bit differently, and the stick is a little bit higher. I mean, again, ignorance is just, I don't know what to do. You know, those signs are there, and I don't know what to do. Arrogance. Again, arrogance, the same thing. I love these guys sign. They can put them out, but I'm going to pull up everyone as the president of the association. I'm pulling up all the signs I don't like. And they got stupidity, where everybody could be. I'm in charge fines to, you know, to the other color guys sometimes. So in other words, it's like, I can't believe you did something like that. Is the stupidity part, and these are the ones that cost you $10,000 because at the end of the day, you're not asking for damages. You're saying, will you please judge tell them how idiot and competent they are for doing what they

Robert Nordlund: 9:18

did. Kevin, I think I'm still stuck in trying to create an ordered community where we have neighbors. You talked about signs, and now I'm thinking about the guy who's a lifetime marine and he served in so many places he served. What do you say, honorably, vigilantly, and he wants his Marine Corps. What color is that flag? I think it's red. He wants his Marine Corps flag out. But you have, like, no flags policy or rule, yeah, where do you where do you bend and you want to say, Geez Louise, if we didn't have Marines like Fred, we wouldn't have this country. Is that a rule? Problem, or is that an enforcement this

Kevin Davis: 10:01

is what this is. Go back to the beginning, and you asked the question, Why? Why you have the rules anyway? Okay? And we're talking about stability in your association, consistency. But the key thing is that you want to feel this fairness throughout the association, and that's the key. The key is that if you were a board the directors of Community Association, and you have a group of rules, okay? The key is that you want to give the illusion that you're being fair. So you want to force them uniformly, consistent, consistently, okay? And so you can say that this, here's a guy here, that we want to make a difference between this person's sign as persons would he accomplish? The problem is, once you start doing it now, so you put a one out there that you don't like, what the neighbors don't like, then what happens? Then, all of a sudden, there's a degree of unfairness about him. And that's the key is, do you create an unfairness? And that's what we talk about community associations, are you being fair? And when you go to court and you start defending yourself on the rules, the question is, well, is it a reasonable rule? Is it reasonable? Is it reasonable to say, shut this down? Is it reasonable to say, this guy's okay to put his symbol outside, but it's not okay to put a another symbol. And we have, we see a lot during the holiday season, okay, right? You put Christmas tree lights up, but then somebody else might put up a Jewish sign up, but then you put another sign up, and then one, you know, and then all of a sudden you go, okay, yeah, make decisions. Where do you draw the line? And again, we'll talk about something, how to get around that at the end of this thing. But right now, I really want to define the problem. And the problem is that they're not guidelines. They're there for a reason. They're there to create structure for your community association. We bring consistency and stability, because that way, if you want to buy a place in my community association, you're gonna look around and go, Okay, you know the rules are enforced. Even I don't like them. They enforce uniformly. Now here's where the big problem comes into play, Robert, we didn't talk about this from the financial side. Now, what happens if the rules are not enforced uniformly on the financial side, when it comes to assessments, when it comes to reserves, you know, when it comes to late fees, when it comes to non payments, that's where you're getting your big problem there. You know, we talk about things like, you know, parking and pets and those things are kind of silly things. I call them, you know, I say as from a stupidity point of view. You know, I'm tired of kids getting the pool between two o'clock and 12 to two, and I'm working, they can't go in the pool anymore at 12 to two because I'm working here to make too much noise. I'm the president. Don't you agree with Robert? Because you're the vice president, you're working from home. Yeah, the pool and obviously we pass the law, not law office. Can be a 12 to two Monday through Friday, because we work well, you can't do that. Yes, that's this. Well, again, is that stupidity? Is it ignorance? Sometimes it could be a combination of both. The problem is that the rules are there for a reason to stop you from making bad decisions, stop you from all of a sudden reacting. And I guess that's one of the reasons too, Robert, is that you know when you have a rule and you're seeing something as a president, as a board member, you don't like, we react to it. First thing we do, we react. I can't believe they doing that. You know, we got to do something about them, and we don't do it uniformly because we like we all have that person in association that we don't like, okay? But the ones we do like, Aha, we give them that little pass. And that's where the problem comes into

Robert Nordlund: 13:39

play. One of the things you said, hit a nerve, and I realized I am much more prejudiced than I thought I was. I started going down the things that I've seen, the things that irritate me. And yeah, there are things that, when push comes to shove, that are going to irritate anybody. And the question is, and you, you said it. You want to have rules that bring consistency and stability. We've talked in the past about civility, the absence of civility, or the decline in civility. How we want to bring peace? We want to bring, yeah, we want to bring safety and security to our community to our community association, make them inviting and not have them be just a little boiling teapot of tempers over here on the side, I want to go somewhere that you started to talk about. You talked about the rules, pets, parking, pool and amenities, noise and signs, and you started to say they're different from the ones that are fundamental to the association. And help me with that. When I think about fundamental to the association, you need to income stream. So there needs to be the assessments are due on the first they're late by the 10th, or whatever. The thing is at your association, is there a completely different set of rules? If they are financial, or if they're in the bylaws or the governing documents, which ones are simple, malleable, changeable, editable rules, and which ones you really have to stand on. You

Kevin Davis: 15:15

know how I say that the Board Member responsibility, have three responsibility, force the rules, maintain the association right, and financial collect assessments. Those are three big things you have to do. Okay? Now, where they had the problem is with rule enforcement. Because their problem of rule enforcement is they they want to be nice people. They want to be light if they don't do anything that they would give the hard message. So rule enforcement is easy to say, well, it's not that big, an important rule. So if that's the one that they don't, they kind of like it's such a, yes, it's a guideline. Now we talk about maintenance and we talk about financial those are things you gotta obey. Because those are things is the life blood of the association. When it comes to maintaining association with climate, collecting money, you're gonna have to be consistent, and you have to be stable, because when you talk about money, okay, people get upset, like, for example, one of the big issues to talk about late fees. I didn't pay my assessments on time. Okay, when do you charge late fees? Okay? Well, you can say that, you know, say five days later, or 10 days later, one day later. Do you give great spirits? You don't give great spirits. You know, the question is, is that what? How do you perform? How do you make that decisions? Well, they probably written down what decisions are. But over time, what happened to that board is that they say, Okay, we gotta, we'll be strict now, because we need the money immediately, we're gonna start charging a fine within 24 hours they haven't paid it. Now, what happens to that rule is it? Is it? Can they enforce it? Is it important? Well, those are kind of rules that are more important than Okay, did you have a pet policy? Did you have a parking policy? Did you have a policy about, you know, the signs and everything at the end of the day, the big ones when it comes to maintenance and when it comes to financial issues, I've been paid for six months now. What do you do board, how do you enforce it? What do you do? And it's come to part by the ignorance part. Wow, we don't know what to do. He hasn't paid assessments of six months. What do we do? Ignorance is a big problem when it comes to enforcing yours consistently and uniformly. It always goes back to that situation where you know, the last board didn't do it. So why should we start doing it?

Robert Nordlund: 17:23

And do we want to be the bad? Do we want to be known as the bad guys? It would be the bad you get the the minefield of, okay, on the first of the month, we're going to start enforcing the no parking in the fire zone in the fire lane rule. And wouldn't you know, it happens to be the person who's always disruptive at the board meetings, who is the first one to do that, and you think, oh geez, Louise, it's going to look like we're going to we're being harsh on that person, when indeed it's only because he's the first person after the first of the month

Kevin Davis: 17:56

to and then what happened? You don't enforce it that first day, and everybody sees you and enforce it. Then what happens? Then you're losing all your authority. Okay, you lose and that's what happens when you have the rules, especially the two major ones, when the top maintenance and financial, if you don't enforce those things uniformly, consistently, what happens is, is that they start to diminish, and then all of a sudden, you have an association. When you're going what happened to our association? What used to be, well run. It used to be vibrant. It used to be worth a lot more money than it was, than it is now. Wham, to the value of our condo.

Robert Nordlund: 18:27

Kevin, yeah, your world may be more in the office. My world is generally more going to properties. And when I go to Properties, I size them up in the first five minutes, and I can tell which associations are the Wild West. You can often see it in the balconies Southern California. I see surfboards, I see towels, I see different things in Windows. And all of a sudden I realize this association doesn't care. Let's go further down this path. I want to figure out solutions. Yeah, I guess solutions. And I have many more questions, but I want to get the solutions. But it's time to take a break to hear from one of our generous sponsors, after which we'll be back with more common sense for common areas tired

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Robert Nordlund: 19:44

and we're back. Well, everyone listening here doesn't know that Kevin and I spent a lot of time in the break talking about where we could go with this, because we're still trying to figure this out. But I want to get to solutions. Kevin, you introduced the idea of some things are warmth. Important than others, just the finances of the association. And I know there's some associations that have rules of how many pets you can have. Does three goldfish in a fish bowl count as pets? And don't want to go down that path and fight that battle, but how do we get to the point of having solutions where you are helping the association, and you said it earlier, how do how do we help our board member audience listening to this, bring consistency, stability and maximize property values to their community? Again,

Kevin Davis: 20:34

we divide up into the three areas. Okay. Number one, enforcing of the rules. To me, enforcement of the rules is about fairness. Are we being fair to people who live there? Do they have a feeling that life is being fair? Okay? If they have that feeling life being fair, then you're doing a pretty good job of enforcing the rules consistently. Ukrainian stability in that association. So that's the most important thing the other two definitely. We talk about maintenance. You talk about financial situations you want to have, I would say, enforce those things to the hill. I mean, you're going to have to, because once you deviate from either one of those, property values diminish. And you said that early walk into an association. You know, right after that, if that association is maintained or not, if I take a step back and start using rules that guideline suggestions. I'm going to make suggestions and that are not going to be in the best interest association. So you can start diminish you see diminishing returns. So if I'm the board president, might have one job to enforce the rules uniformly and consistently. So that's the key thing for me. Now we're going to talk about solutions. And to me, the number one solution is you have to have a well written enforcement policy. And

Robert Nordlund: 21:49

that sounds like something that goes from year to year, board to board, and it gives Julie has talked about, like a mission statement. We are happy valley villas. We are known for this. Here's our logo. Here are our colors and whatever it is. And this the enforcement policy is the same kind of thing where it just guides the association forward. And hey, just the way we do things here, yep.

Kevin Davis: 22:15

And you can change it as time goes on, you know, now suddenly you have, you live in a post COVID world. You can say, Listen, you know, from 12 to two o'clock we're going to close everything, and we'll close everything, and because people are working, and now it may not go over well, but instead of saying from 12 to no children, we can say 12 to two nobody. We want to close we think that's a great idea. I get these are rules that the the board and the people who live there can agree upon that, you know, or go back to the pets you know, well, we don't, we don't think you're gonna have pets, but a pet is okay. A pet is less than 25 pounds, okay, and less than 25 pounds or 10 pounds, whatever it is. And the key thing is to enforce those rules consistently without exceptions.

Robert Nordlund: 23:03

My My pen is just about smoking with all the notes I'm taking here. Okay, I understand that. And okay, let's go. Let's talk about rules. I have seen when we get packages of governing documents from Association, sometimes they give us the rules, and I see some rules that are good and some that look like they are 2030, years old. And I don't like the 2030 years old. And just one thing that we've done is appreciate that sometimes we see that our policy has been that the check must be received by and we can't use that word anymore, because half of our people, half of the people paying us are paying us electronically. So just technologically, you need to update your rules. And like you said, with more people at home, maybe you need to say the rules during the week for the pool are different from the rules on the weekend. And maybe you have a preamble to your rules that give kind of a mission or a feel that talk about we we try to be peaceful here, therefore we ask two hours after sunset that you keep the noise down at the pool. So maybe it's not a rule, it's a guideline. But you've told people what we're what we're about here.

Kevin Davis: 24:15

I think you nailed it right there. When you're saying, again, we're talking about the enforcement of those five little things, pets, parking, pool, noise, those things, they could be more guidelines, and instead of being absolutes, because if you have more guidelines, then it's a degree of fairness, as opposed to just saying, no, no, no, no, no, but you don't have to make it so that it makes sense in the long Run, those are the rules that has to make sense and be done without bias. Because you gave me You said something earlier, is that, where's those rules? There are biases. What if you have a rule that's 2030, years old that says no kids in the pool without supervision, or something like that, no kids in the pool? Well, you can't do that anywhere. Fair Housing Act says you can't discriminate against children. You. Uh, but you may have that in your documents and never updated it, and you may not know, because of the ignorance part of it, you may not know that they changed the rule. You have documents out there in an, you know, in the 50s and 60s that I've seen over time that still have discriminating, discriminating wording in those documents. So you can update, you got to look and see, wait a minute. We can no longer apply these rules. They don't apply anymore, because they're not fair,

Robert Nordlund: 25:24

right? And so you get to the you need to appreciate, let's not ignore, let's edit and update. Okay? Because the the word check, maybe you need to change that to be payment, and all of these different words, because you want to aim for equal enforcement, and you can't have one set of rules on the side that you just have all chosen to ignore. But let me take you a different path. We had a board hero guest on the show a few weeks ago, and he was talking about their focus is to try to focus. I forget what his numbers were, 90% on business, 10% on enforcement, or 95 and five. You don't want as a board to be known for enforcement, but you do want to be a board who guides the community forward consistently and fairly. Can you give us some help on that? Wow,

Kevin Davis: 26:16

90% on business. Well, if you 90% on business, then business is about enforcing the rule. Again, you have three jobs. That's a good point. Enforce the rules is number one, not number one means this is one of them. Maintain the association, and again, if you are doing your job properly, guess, guess what? Enforcing the rules is not just enforceable flat it's forcing the management of it, the maintenance, the making sure that you have a maintenance contract, make sure you have a maintenance policy that you are looking at, and say your reserve study. You have reserve study. Are you ignoring it, you know, okay? Or are you, you know? Are you picking pieces out and go, Okay, I care about the rules, but I don't care about, you know, painting. I care about a, but I care about B. Yeah, you know, it's some people care about certain things other than other and what happens is you pick and you choose which ones, which ones you feel are the ones you should pay attention to. And whenever you do that, you end up getting yourself in trouble, because we all have these biases inside of us that says, you know, this is more important to me, because my house gonna be valued more. We had a situation years ago with a self facing porches were destroyed because of the sun, and all of a sudden we wanted to put new porches in everywhere. Well, the people on the other side said, my porch is okay. We don't want to spend money on the porches right. Now, most of us who were on the board that time we had those porches, and so our self interest, okay? Now it wasn't wrong, okay, but it was. We were a little biased, but we have to understand that even though we have these rules there, there's a degree of biasness to them. And once we Okay, once we understand that, it goes back. Are we still being fair? Well,

Robert Nordlund: 27:54

I'm sensitive to that, because that's my world where we're talking about the front doors that get hit by the sun and get deteriorated. And yeah, we in that kind of case, the fairness is not everyone gets their front door refinished in the fifth year. The fairness is we need to keep the doors to a high standard. And so the south facing ones we need to resurface every other year. The north facing ones we can resurface every fourth year. It is, what are we trying to accomplish, but making sure that you are enforcing the right things? Hey, during the break, we talked about a situation where you allow signs or banners, and then all of a sudden you get into a situation where there is something that is very, I want to say, inflammatory, something that is no longer good. It's nice to put up Happy Valentines, simple it's up for a couple weeks, or some holiday decorations, a wreath on your front door, or whatever it is. It's something that builds community and just puts a smile on your face. But what about when it gets to political attacks or Israel and Hamas Gaza, you know, where all of a sudden you realize this is getting out of hand. How do you as a board member even begin to address do we? Do we make a new rule? There's no signs to try to minimize to bring peace. Where do you go with that?

Kevin Davis: 29:19

Yeah, and that's a good question, because this is that one area where ignorance, you go, Okay, I don't, we don't know what to do. Because there are situations, even if you have just political signs, you could put a nasty political sign over profanity on it, you know, I write this free speech. I could put it say anything I want to. Now, there's fantasy living signs out there that you put out there, you know, you normally put out there. Okay? We

Robert Nordlund: 29:41

come home after being away and we see these signs out here and think, what has happened to my association. This

Kevin Davis: 29:47

is suggestion, and it's number one suggestion we always have, is to use a professional go contact a lawyer and say we don't know what to do, help us, and then follow the lawyer's advice. The problem. We have a lot of times when board members go to the lawyers, the lawyers will say, this is the solution. And guess what the board members do, we don't like that solution. We're going to pull the signs up anyway. But that's ultimately the problem is that the lawyer will give you advice that at the end of the day, when you're walking past that sign and somebody's yelling at you, as a board president, said, Listen, we took an advisement. The lawyer said that we do not have the right to do X, Y and Z, or we do have the right to do X, Y and Z, whatever. The lawyer says, you can walk around through that and feel better about it, as opposed to you deciding that I don't like the signs, I'm pulling them up.

Robert Nordlund: 30:33

Yeah, I think that's a very good point that you will get to a point right actually, to our audience, I hope you don't get to a point where you got such a big problem, you have no idea what to do. We want to encourage you to be fair. And Kevin, you said it, sometimes you can just feel that there is fairness at the association. There's unfairness. We want you to be fair. We want you to be reasonable. We want you to promote civility and community. But if it gets out of hand, contact your professional and get some wise counsel, because

Kevin Davis: 31:06

at the end of the day, what what this is all about to me, and the reason i i really love this topic is because it's gonna save you 1015, 20,$30,000 just no defense costs in here. It's just that you want that judge. You know what that judge says? That Board President acted improperly, unfairly. He discriminated against me, he bullied me, to harass me because that he made that rule up that benefited him. He didn't have the knowledge what he did was really stupid. Judge said last thing. When I hear a judge said, you right, you know, President did something really was kind of stupid. Yeah,

Robert Nordlund: 31:42

let's Hey, we don't have a list of who our podcast audience is, but every once in a while, there's, there's an association that makes the news for all the wrong reasons. I hope it's not one of our podcast listeners. So our podcast listeners, we're going to arm you with the tools for success. We want you to be known for fairness, civility, and knowing at the right time to go to professionals for help. Kevin, fascinating. I we may need to do more on this, this topic, but it's always great talking with you. Any closing thoughts to wrap it up at this time.

Kevin Davis: 32:18

You know, it's funny, are we look at our podcasts, they're the same. Is that what we want to do is, please don't react to everything around you. Look at take a step back, lower the temperature, and go, Okay, what's the best way for us to handle it? And if it gets out of control, use a professional. Don't make a decision yourself. Use a professional. They'll let you know what to do. Follow those documents. Follow those rules here, there for a reason. They're not suggestions, they're not guidelines, they're there for a reason, and just do the best job you can do. Yeah,

Robert Nordlund: 32:49

well, Kevin, you allowed me to take a deep breath and slow down, and you do that for me. I hope that you've done for all our listeners here today. Well, we hope you learned some HOA insights from our discussion that helps you bring common sense to your common areas. Thank you for joining us today. We look forward to bringing many more episodes to you, week after week after week. We'll be here, and it'll be great to have you join us on a regular basis. Spread the word. Thanks.

Announcer: 33:18

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