Kevin Davis: 0:00

So there are ways that we can do from the insurance company to say, Guess what, your participation in this will help you do your job a little bit better. And that is the direction that insurance companies are going right now, do your job a little bit better. Because guess what, that claim comes in, he may not be covered. You may not be covered. Deductible be high enough where you have to participate in it to do your job just a little bit better.

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Association Insights and Marketplace, Association Reserves, Community Financials, HOA Invest and Kevin Davis Insurance Services. You'll find links to their websites and social media in the show notes.

Robert Nordlund: 0:40

Hi. I'm Robert Nordlund of association reserves,

Kevin Davis: 0:42

and I'm Kevin Davis of Kevin Davis Insurance Services. And this is HOA Insights, where we promote common sense for...

Robert Nordlund: 0:49

...common areas. Well, welcome to episode 116 where we're again speaking with insurance expert and regular co host Kevin Davis, so he can connect some dots for you. We've had some recent episodes talking about the rise in incivility from a board member and manager point of view, and recently from an attorney. And that was Ed Hoffman in episode number 104 so continuing our goal to share some of the best information available with our audience our own Kevin Davis here feels he has enough DNO liability insurance claims information to link the rise in incivility to the actual cost of that behavior. This helps you our podcast audience, to be well informed and to be well prepared for the challenging work you do leading your association. Well, last week's episode number 115 featured a great interview with Mitch Gassen of HOA assist, that's a company specializing in supporting the accounting and administrative needs of associations who wish some support, but not full professional management. Now, for many associations, this is a lower price point sweet spot, and it's great to be able to share information about companies like HOA assist who have risen to support board members, and I'll say it again in the hard work they do leading their association forward. So if you missed that episode or any other prior episode, take a moment after today's program to listen from our podcast website, Hoa insights.org, or watch on our YouTube channel, and, better yet, subscribe from any of the major podcast platforms so you don't miss any future episodes. Well, those of you watching on YouTube can see the HOA insights mug I have here, volunteer board member logo that I got from our merch store, which you can browse through from our Hoa insights.org website or the link in our show notes, and you'll find we have some great free stuff there, like board member zoom backgrounds and some specialty items for sale, like this mug that I just showed so go to the merch store, download a free zoom background, then take a moment look around and find the mug you'd like. And if you're the 10th person to email me at podcast at reserves, a.com I'll ship that mug to you free of charge. Well, we enjoy hearing from you responding to the issues you have at your association. So if you have a hot topic, a crazy story, or a question that you'd like us to address, you can always contact us at 805-203-3130, or email us at podcast at reserve city.com but today's episode comes from Kevin, who reached out to me kind of excited. I can tell when he's got that kind of skip in his voice, excited to share about what he's learned about the actual cost of incivility. So Kevin, you certainly piqued my interest. Tell us what you've learned.

Kevin Davis: 3:40

Okay, well, this is fascinating because I was listening to the Civility by Ed, right, and he hit some key points in there. He talked about that he had three law Yeah, three board members recalled in one year, he talked about the trash cans, all the things I've been talking about to you. And so the lawyer says I'm seeing these problems a day. So once he said he sees them, then guess what? It's gotten bigger. Yeah, you know, as aid insurance specialist who handles, do you know all I see? Just like a policeman who sees traffic all the time, he's that's all he sees. So to him, everybody is decided to see Right, right? That's your world. That's my world. So somebody else's father saw my world, and he was like he was overwhelmed by what he's been seeing. And he's been even seeing it now for five years, okay? And this is the point it has been going on since COVID. And what COVID has done, it gave us a sense that we are not in control, okay? And since COVID, over the past five years, we've all had this feeling of not in control of our lives, you know, which creates anxiety and all these different things inside of us. Now, when you have anxiety, when you are suffering, the key to the whole thing is take action. So when you want to do something, yes, you got to do something like every morning. Saying, you know, I sleep and I worry and I get up in the morning, I take a walk. I take an hour walk, come back, feel refreshed. I'm ready to go. So, as humans, you know, whenever, whenever we feel lost and out of control, we have to take action in the community. Associate world, action means I gotta jump in there and do something. You know, the problem, stir up the pie. And that's what created the problem in the past five years. That's what he missed. Number one thing that he missed was the fact that everybody who lives in Community Association, not everybody, but people who live in community association, has that feeling of, you know, out of control because of society and COVID, everything like that. And so what they're doing now is saying to the boards, guess what? What do you mean, you know, I can't have a pet. Or what do you mean, I can't do this. And who do you think you are? And tell me about the documents. And so now they went from that that level, and now all of a sudden, boom, they created this, this, this massive internal struggle, that that's where it all come from.

Robert Nordlund: 6:00

Okay, well, I'm just thinking about community associations in general, and it's built on the understanding and expectation that there's going to be volunteer board members who put in the work, put in the hours, to lead the association, and almost by definition, except in very tiny associations, the people being led, there's going to be more of them than the people leading in a 50 unit Association, 100 unit Association, you got, what, 45 people, or 95 people that are following, and they're the ones that are anxious. So if you're a board member and you're feeling the heavy burden, then, yeah, go out, take a walk, but or Call your attorney, or call your manager, call your other board members, figure things out. What do we need to do to help our association? But I can see that the majority of owners are wondering, okay, what can I do? Yeah, does it really say that in the governing documents Exactly? And they turn to Attorney Google and things like that, and they're wondering, and

Kevin Davis: 7:06

that's how remember we talk. We say that the board has a responsibility to enforce the rules, maintain the association and collect assessments, and that's what they've done forever. But now what happens is, because of that, that heightened expectation, they called I need to take action as a unit owner. Guess what? I don't believe you have the authority that passed that special assessment, because special subject is what special and he does it six months ago. Who do you think you are, you know? And guess what, those trash cans. And he mentioned Ed, mentioned the trash cans. And the one thing is, yeah, people sees trash cans for more than 48 hours, and they got to be in there. It takes, they have to take action. And that's the problem. It take. You got to take action, and you feel like you have some sense of control. Yeah.

Robert Nordlund: 7:50

I'm thinking back. Do you remember an episode we do? It did with George Nowak long ago, yeah. And the thing that surprised me in that he was talking about how it's impossible to be perfect as a board member, and I, I was wondering about that. I want board members to strive to get it all right, but just the nature of being human is you're going to get something wrong. You're going to get a notification late for the next board meeting. You're going to the trash company is going to move collections from 2p or two o'clock or Tuesday to Wednesday, and all of a sudden it's upsetting the entire apple cart. And you had nothing to do with that as a board member. It's outside circumstances. And so people are, as you say, uneasy, or more uneasy than they were a few years ago, and we're struggling to hold on to, okay, what, what can I hold on to? And what did we learn when we were kids? The only thing that's constant is change, and sometimes that is somewhere between medium and very unsettling.

Kevin Davis: 8:53

I mean, just think about before COVID, right? We come home, we get up in the morning and go to work, come home, four or five o'clock, we have dinner, watch a little TV. But now, at two o'clock in the afternoon, we're sitting at our desk. We're watching we're hearing pickleball outside. You know, we somebody smoking up under my window. They should be smoking. You know, the dog is barking because they have a COVID pet that they at work. These are the things now that we're looking at in community associations that we haven't experienced before. As a result, we're heightened, and then we're anxious, and anxious means we got to take action.

Robert Nordlund: 9:27

Okay, with all this. Now you're in the DNO industry. My kind of understanding has been that, don't most associations have DNO insurance? Or is it all? All associations

Kevin Davis: 9:38

right now and today, they all have it now this, let's talk a little bit about what DNO and we talk about it's directors, and also liability and insurance. You have a liability policy if you get into an accident in your car, so you got Bolly injury, if you hurt somebody, and probably damage if you if you have damage to your car, got it. Well, what you have in the community association is DNO protects you. Against decisions that you've made or decisions you didn't make. So that's what you're talking about. So is that you as a board member, you have to make decisions. Okay, that's your that's your entire job. That's your entire job, and it's usually about the three things I mentioned, you know, enforcing their documents, you know, maintaining and collecting dollars, three main jobs. Okay, now, if you don't do it, or the perception, if you don't do it, guess what happens? Or you get this perception, you've done it wrong. It did it wrong, yeah. Now, historically, that's been what it was. And it used to be something really serious, like, all of a sudden, you know, wait a minute, I looked at the budget, and the budget is not done well. And, you know, the CPA miss some numbers, I mean, or there's a theft there, or, guess what? The rules you have are outdated, you know, we need to update the rules,

Robert Nordlund: 10:50

you know. Or you didn't count the ballots in front of witnesses or something. Yeah, yeah.

Kevin Davis: 10:55

But today's all perception, you know, I perceive that you haven't done. I perceive that. You know my dog I have. You know, even though you don't have, you're not allowed pets in your community. I have a letter from from my doctor says I need to have a pet. And then the board members, what they'll do is they start heightening themselves up to it, so you see lack of civility on their side too, by saying, I don't care. We get rid of it anyway. And that's their problem on their side,

Robert Nordlund: 11:24

yeah. And you've talked about that elevating the temperature, where elevating temperature, you start getting into conflict. And then all of a sudden, the community aspect of us being at Happy villas, all of a sudden, it turns into argument. Villas, intense villas. And

Kevin Davis: 11:38

it goes back to Ed. It was so important what he because he his tone was more like he was surprised by all this. He said, after all these years I've been in it, I'd never seen anything like this before. And for me, I would see it. You know what? I it's every day to me, first time you've seen it so and it goes back to the simple thing is that as board members, you know, we have to make decisions which is in the best interest of the community association. We have to act. We have that fiduciary responsibility. Okay? The problem is, is that if we get inundated by people who says, This is unfair, you're treating me unfair. The rules are unfair, discriminatory. You know, you're harassing me. You're bullying me, all the stuff that wear and tear on that board member's shoulders, it becomes overwhelmed. So now they become indecisive, they have doubt. And so now all of a sudden, they need to pass a special assessment, because we place the balconies, and guess what happens? They get afraid, they get anxious, and so they don't do anything. And all of a sudden, by doing nothing, it compounds the issue.

Robert Nordlund: 12:36

You know, we've talked about the four C's, the aspects of a board member, and I think we need to add confidence in there, because when you're leading with confidence, then people say, Oh, they must know what they're doing. We teach our new site inspectors, we're in the reserve study business. We teach our new site inspectors, wear your local wear, have your equipment on you. Be very clear, be very professional, and look like you know what you're doing. Look like you belong there. And someone might wonder, what's that young man doing, taking pictures and measuring. And if they look closely, they'll see that they're they have logo wear on and they Oh, well, they look like they're appraising something or doing something. And they keep on walking their dog, and they don't wonder, because we walk with confidence. And that idea of a board member having the confidence I'm doing the best I can, we got three out of five people on the board that have decided this is the direction we're going to go look around. We may not have consensus, but we have clarity that this is how we're going to move forward. Here we go. And

Kevin Davis: 13:45

you have it goes back. It goes back to treating them as a treating as a business, not a hobby, not something we do because nobody else is doing it. Once we run that board of directors, we're looking at and go, Okay, how are we going to bring the value of our community association up. We want to increase our value. How do we do that? How we get this down? Okay? And if you go into that direction now, you have the confidence, because you have a message, you have a reason for existing, as opposed to what nobody else is here but me, and I'm the last one, and I'm not here. Well,

Robert Nordlund: 14:17

Kevin, one thing I caught there was that you use the word confidence, and we've talked about caring, we've talked about curiosity, we talked about communication, we talked about courage, and this word confidence really struck a nerve with me that you may not know exactly what's right, you may not have unanimous board, you may be uncertain, but you're together as a board, You're moving forward, and you need to act with confidence. How much does confidence mean to the the population at your community when you're trying to move forward successfully?

Kevin Davis: 14:53

And that's the key, and the way to me, you get confidence. If you have a mission, your mission is to increase the value Association you. That's all we have. One mission is to say, right now, the value my community association should be up 10 20% higher than the one across the street. So we're going to make sure our association is maintained properly. We make sure we're enforcing the rules correctly, and we make sure we're budging the right way. If you do those, you have a COVID association. You have people who really walk around that association and feel that they they are in charge, and they have control. And that's the key thing this whole conversation, Robert, is that if you have a sense of control, you don't need to take any action. You can walk through there and they can they can complain and say, Guess what those rules that you've been in trying to enforce in terms of the pool hours or the gym hours. I don't think they're fair, yes, but guess what? They're consistent. They're uniform. We want consistency. Consistency in our association. There's nothing more important than that. Well, I don't believe it is. So guess what? You know? I tell you what, send us a letter, come to our board meeting. We're glad to hear from you. Yeah, you're

Robert Nordlund: 15:56

treating everyone fairly. Okay, when you say confidence, that's not walking around like a bully, but confidence in that we are treating people equally. We're trying to run this association well, and by golly, things are going smooth here at our association, and that confidence leads to, I would say, community, right? Exactly, exactly. Well. Hey, You tempted me at the very beginning with talking about the cost, you've been able to link the cost. Do we have time to start that one? Or do you want to take a quick break? At this time, it's time for a break, and we'll come back and talk about the cost. Okay, fantastic. Well, this time, it's time to hear from one of our generous sponsors after work, which we'll be right back with more common sense for common areas, and we'll talk about the cost of incivility.

Kevin Davis: 16:42

Hi. I'm Kevin Davis, the president of Kevin Davis Insurance Services. Our experienced team of underwriters will help you when you get that declination. We provide the voice of reason, someone who will stand by you. Our underwriters bring years of knowledge to our clients that can't be automated by technology or driven by price. As a proud and wins company. We bring true value to your community association clients. We are your community association insurance experts,

Robert Nordlund: 17:10

and we're back. Well, Kevin, tell us about DNO claims and costs.

Kevin Davis: 17:16

We talk about costs and we talk about insurance dollars. This is real dollars. Amount. What we're talking about, there's two types of losses, severity losses. That means you're spending millions and millions of dollars. Okay? Then we talk about small losses. Let's talk about the big one first. And I love to always start with something simple, Robert, you remember the lady that McDonald's for the hot coffee yard? Right? Oh, right. Long time ago, long time ago, the amount of damages was $3 million okay? And $3 million changed the world. Everybody thought the most outrageous name, how dare you the lady got second. Oh, I can't believe how horrible this. Well, a couple of years ago, Starbucks had the same thing happen for $40 million

Robert Nordlund: 17:56

All right, so talking about awards getting big, yes,

Kevin Davis: 17:59

and what we call an insurance world is social inflation. You know how inflation that's coming into our world right now, because you're paying more well in insurance world, liability claims have increased. So went from $3 million to $40 million so it went up 10 times. And that's the problem with insurance today is that when there is a liability claim, when somebody is being when you're suing you, you're an auto accident. Right now, either we relate to Bodi injury or property damage, those two things, and people, when that happens, you see those commercials, win big. You win big. You win big,

Robert Nordlund: 18:36

big. Call this number, and that's it. We'll fight for you. We'll

Kevin Davis: 18:40

fight for you. And you know how many lawyers we've received since COVID? Lot of you went back to the law school and said, I'm gonna become a lawyer and make a lot of money. Okay, they are so many lawyers out there, and they're the ones who say in the commercial, had this happened to you? You've been treated unfairly. Have you been harassed, discriminated? Have you been bullied? You know, if you have call this number, and we will see you get paid. And what happens is now that $3 million announce worth $40 million 100,000 is now worth, you know, 3 million, and that's what insurance problem comes into play. We have to decide how much to charge you now, you know, because you know, you have these jurors in there who loves giving awards out to people who think they've been harmed and now not damaged so much, but harm. They've been harmed, emotionally harmed, physically harmed also. But the days are gone when we thought that you had a million dollars. Was a lot of liability. It's not anymore.

Robert Nordlund: 19:39

Well, I want to catch something that you said. There the emotional damage. Now, if you get coffee spilled on you, and you have burns, then you have medical bills, and maybe you miss some work, and so you have some loss of income. So there are some economic there's some real dollar losses there. But when we're talking about here and tension and a dog. Dog and harassment. How do you put a number on that? Or do you even put a number on that

Kevin Davis: 20:05

that the judge, yeah, we in a courtroom, the jury puts a number on that. How much? How much has this person been harmed in the community? Okay, I know that a person can't walk his dog out there anymore because you label the dog as something that's unfit, shouldn't be there, even though, exactly ferocious, exactly, you know, but I have a doctor's note says my dog should be there. So guess what? I'm going to file a claim against you because you harmed me. Okay, yeah, and those when you say harm now, all of a sudden, you have, you know, lawyers on now the phone saying, well, guess what, we want to go right to the insurance carrier and say, All right, let's sweat. I see you have a $5 million policy or $1 million policy. We want $5 million right now. Now insurance company gonna say, no, no, you're not gonna get $5 million you gotta be kidding. And then all of a sudden they may get $2 million or $3 million you know, historical negotiation. It could be it could be negotiation, but historically it was 300 $400,000 now they talk in terms of millions, and the problem is, is that Cuban Association don't have those kind of limits available. They don't have 1020,$30 million of coverage out there. They have a $5 million limit on their policy. So what happens is that again, and just think about what happens if you don't repair your roof, and roof leaks and destroyed. Some paintings on the wall. Now, all of a sudden, those paintings on the wall you may have bought for, you know, a couple $1,000 they're worth, what $100,000

Robert Nordlund: 21:31

I mean, you know, the values

Kevin Davis: 21:35

and everything has increased. You know, my car all of a sudden, you know, there's water dripping in their garage. My car is worth a lot more money, and I can't use my car, and it's pain and suffering. Yeah, and you live in a community association, you see the news all the time. You see people getting these huge judgments and huge awards. So they pick up one of those lawyers that you see 1/8 and general call lawyer, and you got them on the phone, and what happens is the insurance costs go up so that this the liability, not just the judgment, but now the costs go up in terms of either hire my lawyer I may have to hire in the community association may hire two or three lawyers. For example, you know, Ed said that they had three elections in one year. Okay, well, someone has to determine which one those elections are the legitimate, which one those boards are legitimate. And guess what happens? They start suing each other, and the judge have to determine the cost in it. How much should that cost the insurance company? Because now of a sudden, if these are directors and officers, these are directors and officers, and these are directors and officers, you have to defend them all until the judge says, Guess what, you're the real one, and then at that time it stops.

Robert Nordlund: 22:43

You got me rubbing my forehead? Yes, okay, I don't want you giving too many ideas to disgruntled homeowners who are listening. We want to help board members here so there's higher awards. Yes, there's mistakes that can be made. Yes, we want to encourage confidence. We want to encourage community. We want we've said it so many times. We want to encourage lowering the temperature and saying and transparency. We've got nothing to hide those kinds of things. But still, I want to get back to do you have a number in your brain for how much this incivility has cost us. That has insurance premiums, DNO, insurance premiums gone up by X percent,

Kevin Davis: 23:31

okay? There's two parts to the economic that the dollars amount, large losses, okay, and then the small losses. The small losses are the one about the trash, the trash cans being out, or the pets that cost 30, $40,000 maybe $50,000 Okay, so now you have an insurance policy that you're getting for$2,000 and we're starting to see a rash frequency. We call it frequency claims, where the board is being sued, because people feel they've been mistreated. So all of a sudden, right now, we're doing okay, and a lot of our competitors are doing the same thing and saying, Where are these claims coming from? What party United States are seeing more of these type of claims anywhere else, and those parts of the of the country that are seeing more claims, we have to make decisions in terms of, what do we do about it? And our decisions always based on three things, a raise rates. Two, put a deductible on there or put exclusions in there. And so the insurance companies right now we do is say, Okay, from an exclusion point of view, we know every Association has that one guy in there that caused a lot of trouble, we will exclude him from coverage. So every time that person sues the board, the board has no coverage, so the board has to take responsibility for that person's actions.

Robert Nordlund: 24:51

That puts pressure on the board to use kid gloves when they're dealing with Joe in unit number 13, a joint and. But Jonah union number 13 and they all in the back of their minds, put a clock on their brain that they hope Joe moves out. But in the meantime, Joe and unit number 13, they need to be polite. Maybe that. Maybe that's it. It forces the board to be polite, to answer their emails in a timely manner, to be patient to smile at them when they're walking around. And I almost want to say, do what they should always be doing.

Kevin Davis: 25:30

That's the whole point. That's why I got excited about today's topic, because there is a cost. There's $1 cost to the insurance. But insurance is saying, guess what, we want you to participate in that loss from now on, you know, if there's a loss against somebody who we're not insuring, you have to cover that. So you will, you will do a better job in that one person, or we will put a higher deductible there. So if there's a loss a DNO claim, we may put a$10,000 deductible on there and say, Guess what? You pay the first $10,000 and then we will pay everything other than that, because right now I'm concerned about the frequency of claims, the frequency of harassment, discrimination and bullying claims we are seeing because people feel they're not being heard, they're not being treated fairly. So there are ways that we can do from the insurance company to say, Guess what, your participation in this will help you do your job a little bit better. And that is the direction that insurance companies are going right now, do your job a little bit better. Because guess what? That claim comes in, he may not be covered. You may not be covered. You know, deductible be high enough where you have to participate in there to do your job just a little bit better.

Robert Nordlund: 26:42

Got it. There's another voice in the back of my head so many times when I've spoken to you in the past, it's this voice that says insurance is for accidents, not for known things. And you've preached to me that you've got to maintain your property because you don't want to invite a roof leak, you don't want to invite a slip and pull slip and fall hazard. You don't want to invite a gate being open. So it's the pool presents itself as a hazard. And so if you know Joe in unit number 13, is a known hazard, do you need to step up? Because that's no longer an accident. Joe is just the kind of guy who's no offense to Joe in unit 13. You're out there. That person just is has a hard time with living in community, and so the board's got to step up, because, again, Joe's not an accident. He's a known issue, and that's what

Kevin Davis: 27:32

insurance companies are doing across the board. Now for community associations, most of the associations out there have water damage claims, the number one type of claims, and community associations, water damage, pipes break over, toilets overflow, right? So we're saying is that, guess what? If you have a claim of that nature, you have a $25,000 deductible, then all of a sudden, whoa, wait a minute. That's way too much. That's okay. So now the boards are participating and saying, these are things we're doing to make sure we don't have water mix

Robert Nordlund: 28:00

maybe. So we're talking about being proactive and maybe sending a maintenance person or a plumber to inspect the water heaters, or would an association hand out a higher level or new washing machine hoses? Exactly,

Kevin Davis: 28:17

okay, yes, there are things that there's a lot of things they can do right now to limit their losses. Okay, an insurance company is saying, guess what? We're not only raising rates, but we're going to hold you accountable. Make sure you do your job, because the insurance policy not a maintenance contract. We're not there in roof leak or you have these issues, we want you to maintain it, and we're there if there's an accident, something called Southern accidental, you know, a sudden accident. Hey, we're there, but it was wear and tear. We're not there. On the DNO side, it's the same thing. It's becoming the same thing, because we know, if you treat people fairly, if you have open, honest communication, and guess what, somebody sues you because they believe you would act it improperly. You didn't follow the rules where you should, but you believe you did. Those people we want to defend. We want to defend the boards out there that are doing the job they should be doing, and the ones that are not doing the jobs we're saying. Guess what? We'll take a pass on that board, because that one person that association is going to continually give us problems day in and day out. You know, I

Robert Nordlund: 29:22

had a couple of questions here as I was preparing for this interview. What can boards do to actually lower the temperature? And you just went through it, treat them fairly open and honest communication, and then do your best to and you've given me those three things always, to enforce the rules, maintain the association, collect assessments. If you're doing the right kind of things, you're stacking the odds in your favor. Okay? And then

Kevin Davis: 29:46

when there's a claim, comes in, and guess what, you get defended. You pay defense calls. Life goes on is over.

Robert Nordlund: 29:52

You make it sound so simple.

Kevin Davis: 29:54

That's why I called you when I heard civility is now is a point in time where people are. Recognizing that there's a problem in community associations. We've been seeing it for five years now. The day the lawyers are seeing it, they're saying boards, you have to do something about it, because it's becoming a a serious problem.

Robert Nordlund: 30:12

Got it okay? So you have some claims that you call the severe ones, and they're getting bigger because of social inflation. You have some claims that are the small ones, and they're not necessarily getting bigger, but they're getting more frequent. So you need to do what you can do to minimize those Okay, I like putting it back into the board members hands and having them leave this podcast episode saying, Okay, there's something I can do to keep that insurance cost, to keep a lid on it. We can treat people fairly open and honest communication. And if they're not taking notes, I'll put it in the show notes, enforce the rules, maintain the associations, collect assessments. You got it? Kevin, thank you. As always, it's great talking with you. Any closing thoughts to add at this time to put a bow on this conversation? And

Kevin Davis: 31:00

I think, I think you nailed it, open, honest communication, I guess, gets you a long way at this being confident. Confidence, you know you're doing your job for one reason. You want to improve the value Association.

Robert Nordlund: 31:12

I like that confidence is one of those magic words. Well, we hope you learned some HOA insights from our discussion today that helps you bring common sense to your common areas. Thank you for joining us. We look forward to bringing many more episodes to you, week after week after week, we'll be here. It'll be great to have you join us on a regular basis. Spread the word.

Announcer: 31:34

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