Kevin Davis: 0:00

LifeLock is for you, okay? Insurance is for the company itself. Okay? So if the company suffers one of those types of losses, you owe $60,000 for roofer. Roofer sends in a invoice with a new bank and routing number. Now, $60,000 is missing. Now, at LifeLock, all it's going to do is watch you to make sure and protect you to make sure that nobody steals your identity. We're talking about a loss of

Julie Adamen: 0:25

money. Of Money, yes, yeah, actual loss

Kevin Davis: 0:27

of money.

Announcer: 0:28

HOA Insights is brought to you by five companies

that care about board members: 0:31

Association Insights and Marketplace, Association Reserves, Community Financials, Kevin Davis Insurance Services, and the Inspectors of Election. You'll find links to their website and social media in the show notes.

Kevin Davis: 0:44

I'm Kevin Davis, the president of Kevin Davis Insurance Services.

Julie Adamen: 0:48

And I'm Julie Adamen, and President of Adamen Inc. And this is HOA Insights, where we promote common sense for

Kevin Davis: 0:53

common areas. Welcome to episode number 144, we're back in speaking with an HOA management expert and regular co host, Julie Adamen. Over the past several episodes, we've talked about the challenges community associations are facing as we move into 2026 everything from inflation to governance pressure. But today we're focusing on a risk that many board members know exists but don't always fully understand, and that is cyber risk. They say community associations are increasingly being targeted by cyber criminals, whether through phishing emails, fraudulent fraud transfer requests, ransomware or data breaches. At the same time, we're seeing boards and managers turn to new tools like AI to get quick answers and make decisions. So today's conversation is about how we can get a better understanding what cyber risk really comes from, and how AI fits into the picture, and while we align when the right kind of expertise matters, when something goes wrong. Last week, episode number 143, was a great conversation with Candace Scanlon in another one of our popular board hero episodes. If you get CIS Common Ground magazine, you might have heard about her in the November, December 2025, Episode, she's a long time board member at our Southern California Association, and in our conversations with Candace, she shared a number of great lessons she learned over the years. If you missed that episode or any other prior episode, go to visit us at Hoa insights.org search for HOA insights on YouTube or subscribe to your favorite podcast platform. Subscribing helps us reach more boards with free educational episodes, and that's how we strengthen the community association industry across the country. Now, those who are watching on YouTube, notice we have our HOA insight mugs here. Here they go. Here's mine. Julie, you have yours. Got my merch? Okay, go to our marriage store. We have a lot of free tools. There lot board members. Zoom backgrounds, help you look professionals and prepared for your next meeting. And as always, we enjoy hearing from you. If you have a hot topic or any kind of concern or any questions, just drop us a note at 805-203-3130, or email us at podcast at Hoa, insight.org, but today, program is on focusing help and safety in 2026 so ready to get started, Julie,

Julie Adamen: 3:35

I am, let's do it for the folks. That's a little bit different, because I though I am the moderator of this event, because Kevin is the expert on cyber, on cyber risk, right? So I'm going to ask some basic questions, because this is something I don't really know a lot about. So hopefully those of you who don't know anything about cyber risks as it relates to your community association will also get some good information, like I'm hoping to. So Kevin, my question, are you ready?

Kevin Davis: 4:01

I am ready. Looking forward to my favorite topic is cyber one thing that's yeah, because it's that one area now that I see what's happening, and nobody really is their heads in the sand. Simple as that, I

Julie Adamen: 4:15

think just a lot of people are unaware, or they just don't think about it, especially in the context of Hoa, is because, honestly, even though your HOA is pretty much can be a ginormous corporation with millions of dollars in budgets, we just think of ourselves as small time. But I guess we're not. So okay, let's start here. I really wanted I've got these written down and wearing glasses people, so I can actually see what I've written here. So Kevin, let's start where it's basic when you talk about cyber risk for in terms of HOA community associations, what does that really mean? What does that mean to you when you start talking to people about cyber risk?

Kevin Davis: 4:50

Sure, we all understand what cyber criminals, what they do. They are after two pieces of things. For Community Association, they after the money. Reserve account, operating account, all the money, but they also after your data. So when you talk about as community association being so small and so insignificant that we don't think cyber criminals are looking for you, you're the perfect target. Okay? So we start there. That's where we start at, yeah. Well, okay, cyber criminals looking at that you right now, because you said the most magic thing I don't know really much about cyber, is cyber and we're small. That's the problem. Right off the

Julie Adamen: 5:27

bat we have do we definitely have that mindset, that's for sure. So okay, now we know what their target because we definitely have money. I mean operating account, reserve accounts. I mean, some associations have reserve accounts in the multi millions of dollars. So I can see that would be a big target. And of course, those of us who manage or are on boards, that's just not front of mind. You know, it's not top of mind, I guess is how I want to say that. So, okay, so how big of an issue has this become? Let's say from five or six years ago? What percentage of increase would you think we've had in cyber crime, or at least attempted

Kevin Davis: 6:03

cyber crime? All right, when we talk about cyber crime for Community Association, went from zero, non existent, five, six years ago to the day is quite normal. Let me give you a perfect example. What we see in cyber crime that impacts everybody. All right, you are a professional manager, right? You have clients, right? Yep. All right, what I do as a cyber criminal, I will hack into your system. Okay, I just sent you an email pretending to be Kevin Davis, okay, so I hacked into your system. Allison, I get all a list of all your clients. And guess what I do with that list of clients? Sell. I send, I send them, all your clients, a invoice saying the amount that is due has been you're 60 days late, 30 days late, but if you pay it now, we'll give you a 10% discount.

Julie Adamen: 6:55

It's fishing. I mean, what they're doing is the fishing.

Kevin Davis: 6:57

Yeah, here's the key, though, here's my new bank and routing number? Yeah, that's the key. That is the key. How many managers, how many board members? How many landscapers, how many roofers get tricked into doing that? One thing,

Julie Adamen: 7:11

it has to be 1000s. Because, I mean, even just owning a business, obviously, I own my own business. I've sit in front of a computer most of the day. I get stuff like that all the time. And I think what I would tell anyone in the management side and the board side both is that if it doesn't look right, don't click on it. I mean, don't just assume that it's safe. Don't call the company or send them a separate email, going, did you guys send this out? That's what I do when I get those weird phishing things and I know that they're they say they're from someone who's maybe a client of mine, a management company or something, and I will just take that and forward it to the people I know at the company, and go, This is what's going on. They're like, Oh, thanks let me for letting me know. And they send out a blanket email to their clients, saying, This was not us. It's huge.

Kevin Davis: 7:54

That's the problem, see, but you're smarter right there than most other it's not matter being smart or it's a matter of little sad taking that initiative. You go, Wait a minute. This doesn't sound right now as a board, as a board member or a management company, guess what? Most times you guys are so busy that you don't take that extra step as soon as you see this is my new bank and rally number. You go, Hoa. I can't believe they changed. Now, how many times you ever change your bank and routing number in your life? Never, never, no. And we don't usually change only

Julie Adamen: 8:22

if you change your bank. I mean, right, there's only if you change your bank.

Kevin Davis: 8:25

Yeah, exactly. But we don't do that that often, but when? But when you see an email that says, here's my new banking rally number, then all of a sudden, you said it, right? You call that number. You say, Wait, call that number. You call the association, you call the match company called a landscaper, you call the roofers. There's so many contracts that a board member and a magic company are dealing with that they get faked way too often. That right now is the number one problem that we see in community So, everywhere. Okay, Community Association, it's everywhere I get them. But in Community Association, record board members rely on their management company, and management company is relying on that board because, again, management companies are so busy that that fake board member, Kevin Davis, the board member of Happy Valley, all of a sudden, says, I've been waiting a long time for the new pool furniture you haven't submitted yet, or the new light bulbs that you should have said long time ago, well, here's the box, here's the light bulb, so here's the money you can pay for it. Then all of a sudden, what happens is, the board never, never gets it, the money that was due the landscaper. Or you'd imagine you don't get it. And now, a sudden lawsuits happen. You start putting these liens on a property, and it creates a huge, huge problem

Julie Adamen: 9:40

for Association, yes, and you're seeing it. Would you say you see a new case? Weekly, monthly, daily. What do you see?

Kevin Davis: 9:46

They are happening more and more, where it went from zero. So now they come and pass my desk a lot more, to the point where it's like all we can say is, everybody out there, if you have a doubt it. It's think it's going to be fraudulent. It is fraudulent because, from an insurance point of view, it's so new, most insurance carriers do not provide coverage for it's called social engineering.

Julie Adamen: 10:12

Now, that's what I was going to ask you about. Now, is there coverage for this? Yeah.

Kevin Davis: 10:17

Okay, so social engineering. Is that the tight a topic. That's what we're talking about. And social engineering is when you voluntarily give money away. Okay, so we talk about insurance when you voluntarily give money away. Guess what you just did? You volunta voluntarily gave money away? Yeah, exactly. So that's not a claim under insurance policy, because you voluntarily gave it away. So if you were you were tricked into it, as opposed to clicking on something, and you downloaded something and now the money is gone. You don't have knowledge of that, but you actually got tricked into it. Insurance doesn't cover being tricked. You know, it doesn't cover scams. So what has happened with the past year or so? Some insurance provider says We understand you have nonprofit board members that are unaware, so we have to provide that coverage. So the number one lesson right now is to see if you have social engineering and insurance under your policy.

Julie Adamen: 11:14

That's very interesting. So that's a brand new thing. That's fascinating. At first, I would have thought, well, of course, there's going to be coverage for that. But the point is that you're voluntarily giving it away, but now that they're willing to well, and how is the cost? Is it relatively nominal, or it is?

Kevin Davis: 11:29

This is the part that you shouldn't be able to get it. But this is the problem. Most insurance providers don't understand social engineering, so you have to have to have a specialty policy to get it. If you have a specialty policy, it may be cost $100 add it to your insurance coverage.

Julie Adamen: 11:48

Oh, that's quite reasonable. My goodness, if you're gonna get that, you should get that. But it's just like so for my business and for personally, we have an organization called LifeLock. So if your if your identity is stolen. They will, you know, they give you X amount of dollars of time to fix it for you. Is it something like that? Do they fix it?

Kevin Davis: 12:08

Yes, that's a perfect example. LifeLock is for you, okay? Insurance is for the company itself, okay? So if the company suffers one of those types of losses where all of a sudden, your reserve account is gone because, you know, somebody said, okay, the roofing contract is done. You owe $60,000 for roofer. Roofer sends in a invoice with a new bank and routing number. Now $60,000 is missing. Yeah, now at LifeLock, all it's going to do is watch you to make sure and protect you, to make sure that nobody steals your identity, right? We're talking about a loss of money, okay, actual loss of money. Now to go to the other side for data breaches. So we're talking about two things here. We're talking about the loss of funds, which is social engineering, but LifeLock, like really talked about loss of data. So now all of a sudden, you know me as a cyber criminal. Not only I have access to all your money because I tricked you into giving me all your information, looking at every individual board member, but also looking at every unit owner you have there, and I want to hack them too so I get I can create an identity for them. And all

Julie Adamen: 13:20

of a sudden, you've become a Nigerian prince who wants to give me money, right? Oh, yes,

Kevin Davis: 13:25

exactly, yes. But it's interesting, though, because, again, it's easy to influence somebody if I pretend to be somebody, you know. So if I've said, Listen, this is Kevin Davis. We've known each other for a really long time, there's a Nigerian prince that I am well aware of right now. And so you get to be so busy. Sometimes you guys say, Listen, I give you a perfect example. What happened to me when I first started about two or three years ago? Okay, I started talking about social engineering. So I went to Hawaii to do a presentation for the Hawaii Cai chapter. And so I put it in LinkedIn that I'm going to y talk about cyber by the time I got there, my CFO said, how many gift cards do you want? I said, How many gift cards? I never ordered any gift cards. I said, No, I got an email from you saying that you were now in the y and you need 10 to 15 gift cards. You can get up and you have a new, guess what? They have a new address for you to send it to.

Julie Adamen: 14:21

Yes, yes, that's, that's, that's quite the scam. Or they Oh, or now, let me talk about this, because this will dovetail perfectly into this. How are they utilizing AI for fake voices on the phone? Yes, yes. This is something people really need to be aware of. Talk to talk about that a little bit. Kev, alright,

Kevin Davis: 14:41

this is the interesting thing right now. Is easy to this, to hack your system and get your and get your data and say, you know, i Julie Adam, and please pay now, okay, to avoid late fees, you send it out without any picture or anything. But now in AI, right now, I have your picture in front. Could you imagine? Pleading words in there and say Hi, happy happy acres. Community Association, Julie here. And guess what? If you pay today, because we're trying to really evolve and get bigger, you pay today, I'm gonna offer you a 10% discount just by paying right now. Because guess what, this is a hot this is a great time. You got Valentine's Day coming on, and we're looking for right now to help help you Community Association. And now is your face and your voice. And your voice is a huge problem,

Julie Adamen: 15:28

and let me tell folks out there. So I have a in my business here. I have a series of online classes for managers and board members, actually. So I have two separate sets, but the managers one, I have just redone them all modernize the way they look, and that type of thing. And I used an AI avatar. It's easy stuff. It's not even very expensive. And you I, you know, you go onto a website, you pay them, obviously, for the use of their services and including the avatars. And if you didn't know, in fact, I sent it and showed it to Robert Nordlund, our other illustrious co host, because I use my son as the avatar. I just use his his picture, and it's, it's, sounds just like him totally. And he's like, Oh, is that Spencer? I'm like, No, and you're Robert's pretty savvy about this, and it was fast because obviously I know, because I work with it all the time, and I couldn't use my kids, so I know all the nuances. But if you didn't necessarily know, you would not know. And it to me, it's, I say it's wondrous, but it's a little frightening too.

Kevin Davis: 16:25

And from insurance point of view, we have no idea what's covered is not covered because, in other words, in order for it to be a loss under an insurance policy, it has to be fortuitous, you know, accident. Okay, can't be you have to be unaware of it. But these things you are aware when you give money away, there's awareness factor there. So where did the insurance company says it's covered and where it's not? We're learning every day AI is going to create all kinds of headaches for us in our future, because it goes back to breach of fiduciary duty. As board members, you have to act in the best interest of the association. So now you're not a a technology specialist, you know you're not a CIO. You know you're not you don't have a contract. You enter all these contracts, but not one of mentions what happens in the event of a cyber loss. So there are things there now that as boards, as magic companies, you got to think about in terms of what happens if there is a cyber loss.

Julie Adamen: 17:26

You know what? Kevin, I bet we need to go to commercial break for a minute for our sponsors, because we're about 18 minutes in. Think we should Okay, sounds good? Okay, all right, everyone. We'll see you shortly.

Paige Daniels: 17:37

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Kevin Davis: 18:09

and we're back. Joy. Ah, that was, that was fascinating conversation. So what's next? What do you got next for me?

Julie Adamen: 18:16

Well, here's one question. This is what I was thinking about right before we went to break was that okay? I'm a management company owner. Let's say I own a management company, and it could be a big one, mid size. Doesn't really matter, but the breach was through one of my staff members, and then Association money got pilfered. Have you seen that? And how does does? Can management companies get coverage for that? Or what? Oh, sure.

Kevin Davis: 18:40

Okay, so this would happen in management company. We've seen this several occasion. Somebody goes to a management company office. They pretend to be the UPS, person, the janitor, or somebody from the home office. They go to the server room. Once they get inside server room, either a pick the entire server try to put a thumb drive in it and to get all the information out, or they forgot some way getting that data. Now, once they had that data, it's like, now, all of a sudden you want to go to the bank, Julie, and you want to walk into a bank and either deposit some money for the association, remove money for the association. Well, guess what happened once I had that data and information? It's like me walk into the bank and say, Guess what? I'm Julie Adam, and I want, I want the reserve account of happy acres right now. Okay, I have all the documentation you need, and please give it to him, and they will give me a check right there on the spot.

Julie Adamen: 19:32

Wow. So now, do you think it would be prudent? I guess it would be for when, if a board is, they've got, you know, they're going out to bid for a new management company. Let's just say they're doing that, or they're getting bids, plus they're getting one from their current company. Is it prudent for them to ask if the management company has this type of coverage?

Kevin Davis: 19:50

Two things, number one, not only ask, but say, what happens in the event of a loss? What happens? What participation are you going to do for us? Because as a board. Remember, we don't have cyber we don't understand it, but we need some. We I would assurances from you, because it's not gonna be in the contract at all. There's nothing in the contract. But we want assurances. So we want to hear from the magic company. Yes, we have coverage. Okay, if there's, if there is a cyber event, and we will, we will help you. If there

Julie Adamen: 20:21

is a cyber event. Well, it's me, that's very interesting. So do you see a reason why it shouldn't be in the contract? I'm not trying to make work for people. I'm just asking, this is

Kevin Davis: 20:31

it definitely should be in the contract? Because this is what. This is what. Let me give you example of a a cyber breach, data breach that's going to that has happened in the path for Community Association. So Julie, you are not you're the president. I'm the treasurer of the Community Association. We go to the board meeting, right? And we're sitting, and I said, Julie, so what's going on say? Wow. Weird thing happened. I got a letter from the IRS. They said that somebody sent my return in already. I can't believe it, and it's 2026 and I've got all my information. I can't even turn it in all turn to that already, and I go, You know what I got to tell you? I got this same letter from the IRS. I can't believe that happened. And then all of a sudden, another Robert Norlin comes in and said, same thing happened to me. Then we realized, Oh, our association has been hacked. Now. We call it the property management company, and the property managed company will say we we we don't understand, we don't know anything about it, or we do know about it, and we have no coverage. So good luck. You know, I mean, a lot of different things can happen at scenario, but we know right now that association has been hacked because three or four of us got leverage from the IRS saying our information has been stolen. So now, so we know Association's been hacked, so we go to the managed company and say, this has happened. The managed company will look and see that it only impacted your association. So it might be a 12 year old inside an apartment, year number two, right? Or somebody to sign an apartment number two, it's not us. Or they can say, yes, you're not the only Association has been hacked. So what you need to do is, we're working on it to find out how to handle it. In the meantime, by law, there's certain things you have to do community association. That means you have to have notifications. You have certain things you got to do you have to do by law. So now you have to be prepared for that and that association come back, the management can also say no coverage at all. I mean, we don't know, we don't help you. So my point here is this, the association has to have their own cyber policy, and a management company has their own cyber policy, kind of like workers comp. It's a good idea. And even better, it's like for the crime insurance. Remember, historically, we talked about crime insurance, where the managed company needs their crime policy, the association need a crime policy that way you don't have that problem anymore. You if you are hacked and you don't know whose fault it is, you have your own coverage.

Julie Adamen: 22:52

You have your own and so this is two boards. I would completely recommend that you make sure your company has this type of insurance, and you need to have it as well. It's a relatively nominal cost for both parties, is what it seems to me. And it's just like way, you know, way, way back in the old days, Kevin, when we were in our 20s and we started in this industry, it was the 80s. It was wild, but, but remember when workers comp, like associations, were like, Well, why do we need to have it? We don't have employees just in case it's a belt and suspenders thing. It was just in case somebody's on your property and all of us their insurance had lapped they get hurt, or if you have board members that are out doing things they shouldn't be doing, you know, like screwing in light bulbs or doing minor maintenance and somebody gets hurt, you absolutely need this coverage, especially in states that are far more litigious than others, California being one. I mean, you could go to Illinois or New York or that type of thing, but still, it's just belt and suspenders for everyone. And by the way, for you, management company people out there, you should absolutely have this type of coverage. Wouldn't you think Kev

Kevin Davis: 23:56

exactly because they're the ones that have the most exposure, yeah, because they overworked. They don't have it a specialist. They don't have a chief operating officer of technology, a technology officer, and they are so busy, and there are so many they jumping so many different balls, it's so easy to influence them. And that's all what cyber is doing today is saying, guess what? I can help you. I can help you save money. I can help you to get your job done better, save time. Just click right here, right now, and we've done it.

Julie Adamen: 24:30

No bueno people, no bueno Yeah, wow.

Kevin Davis: 24:34

And that's, that's the problem? Oh, there's another area too, in cyber that I got to make sure we mentioned and talk about is something new is going on, is that there are people going into condominium association in their mailboxes and breaking those locks out and stealing checks out of there. And because the technology is easy to whitewash the checks and to issue new add to cashless checks, and because we don't do monthly reconciliation. Anymore, most of us don't. We get we forget all about those checks until, once again, somebody calls up and says, I haven't been paid. So it's really right now, technology is moving faster than we ever could imagine, and it's creating a huge problem for all,

Julie Adamen: 25:13

and it's not going to get slower. That is not going to slow down. So I think the maybe some of the best advice you or I could give any of them is that, you know, rely on your expert, your board, call your insurance agent or your broker and find out if you have this coverage and get it if you don't have it, rely on your experts.

Kevin Davis: 25:32

Not only rely on experts. Don't lie on chat. GPT, because a lot of people will go to chat, G, P, T, says, Listen, do I really need social engineering coverage. If I live in a community association, they may say, No, social engineering is designed multinational corporations and blah, blah, blah, and then you'll come back to me later on, say, Kevin, you try to sell me social engineering and court, according to chat GBT, not necessarily at this point in time. Yeah, that's the future problem that we have to worry about also.

Julie Adamen: 26:01

This is very true, and this goes for anybody who's in and around the industry, whether it's your service provider, you know, a consultant, a management company, manager, anybody and board members, everyone should be aware of this. I mean, I use chat, GPT, I use several of the AIS to assist with what I'm doing, whether it's something I'm volunteering for, I volunteer with couple of organizations, as well as my own business, and I utilize those tools. They are tools. Tools are not perfection. You. They are not going to take the place of your expert or even your own eyeballs. So if you have something written up, make sure and go over it, because I have found glaring errors, absolute, glaring errors, but it can be quite a time saver, but it is not a guru, it's not a doctor, nor does it play one on TV.

Kevin Davis: 26:47

No, if it did, at least it makes me feel more comfortable, right?

Julie Adamen: 26:50

But it did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. Okay? It sure does. Oh, my so I had a couple other questions here. Let me drill down on one thing. Okay, what mistakes do you see? Kevin, associations repeating over and over with regard to this,

Kevin Davis: 27:09

not making that phone call, as simple as that, just getting that information in, assuming is correct, and paying out the money, or whatever it is they're doing. Or that's number one. The second mistake is we make mistakes. We do. You know, technology is there to make us more efficient and make us work quicker, but what happens when we push that button? Is the wrong button. Now suddenly I'm sending out data to everybody, and not data set one person. So, and that's the kind of things that really we have to be careful of, is that we take it, take a step back and go, Okay, wait a minute. I have data that's personal, identifiable information that I need to send to the board, not sent to everybody. And if we said to everybody, that's where your life lock comes into play, yeah, send a LifeLock to everybody you know, whose name appeared in there. So now you have that information.

Julie Adamen: 27:58

I mean, and if you're a, if you're a big organization, a large association with a couple of 1000 or 567, 1000 units, that can be, I mean, that can be a nightmare to fix and for boards. I mean, Kevin, are you at the point and or you maybe, and the Legal Eagles out there? Are you at the point where you think, if someone does not have this social engineering insurance or to insurance against cyber attacks, that they are breaching their fiduciary duty as board members.

Kevin Davis: 28:28

That's the key, because that's what happens now, all of a sudden, you get we have we found you, and I found out the IRS has our information. Now we are board members, so we have to do something about it. Let's say that we go, Well, we went to the manager, and the manager get back to us now. We go back throughout the day. Now, what happened was unit number 10 and 11 and 12 and 18 and 35 and 45 flying out that they've been hacked also. We had a meeting. We knew about it, but we chose to do nothing about it. Yeah, you've reached your duty, right?

Julie Adamen: 28:56

Absolutely, that's what I would say, too. So you know, it's, I hate to tell you, board members. I've been in your position numerous times, as well as a board member, as well as a HOA consultant and that type of thing. But you have one more thing to think about. But you don't have to think that hard, because all you got to do is pick up the phone, call your insurance agent and say, Hey, why don't you come give us a presentation at the next board meeting about cyber you know, cyber risk again, use your experts. They're happy to help you.

Kevin Davis: 29:22

Go to your any insurance professional say I'm concerned about my cyber exposure. If we have a cyber loss tomorrow, I have no idea what to do. No idea. You know, if I'm in a board meeting and my money is gone because I was tricked into it, or I clicked on the wrong thing, or all my data, my personal identifiable information, is out to all the unit owners. What do I do now? And you call your insurance person and says, Guess what? I have a cyber policy that will protect you in those situations.

Julie Adamen: 29:53

That's great. Well, Kevin, I don't know, should we go out? It's we're at 32 minutes. Are we there? You know what?

Kevin Davis: 29:58

I think that was a great club. Closing. I just gave a great closing.

Julie Adamen: 30:02

That was it. Kevin's work. Here is done. Microphone drop, right? Yeah, it was total Mic drop. Of course, we'd have to take the headsets off.

Kevin Davis: 30:10

That would all right, all right. Listen, Julie, thanks a lot. This was fun. I enjoyed it

Julie Adamen: 30:14

and highly informative. So for everybody out there, if anyone has any questions, you could email them into podcast at Hoa insights.com

Kevin Davis: 30:21

I look forward to it, and I guess next time we're going to have another one of our trends coming up for night for 2026. I think we say 19 something. Wow. It's been 20. They've been 26 years. We've been in 20 too much for me,

Julie Adamen: 30:37

getting old as hell. Yes.

Kevin Davis: 30:41

Listen, thanks a lot. Thanks a lot everybody. And we look forward to seeing you guys in the future. Take care.

Announcer: 30:50

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