Kurtis Peterson: 0:00

I want to blanket every Association out there in that fashion. I mean, there's some that run smooth. They don't need our services, and that's all there is to it. And I'm comfortable with that.

Robert Nordlund: 0:11

We love those associations,

Kurtis Peterson: 0:13

doesn't it doesn't go that way forever. You know? I mean, change is inevitable. Something's going to change. And you know, you do only takes one, you know, one individual and an association to really make things interesting. And it's been my experience that there's always at least one, at least one in every Association, and that's regardless of the size, right?

Announcer: 0:35

HOA Insights is brought to you by five companies

that care about board members: 0:38

Association Insights and Marketplace, Association Reserves, Community Financials, Kevin Davis Insurance Services, and the Inspectors of Election. You'll find links to their website and social media in the show notes.

Robert Nordlund: 0:51

Welcome back to Hoa Insights: Common Sense for Common Areas. I'm Robert Nordlund. I'm here today for episode number 156, with a special guest appearing on the program for a second time. You heard him previously on our episode number 133 because we felt that what he had to say to our board member audience continues to be true. Why should a board put in long hours preparing for a vote of any kind and then struggle to support or defend it. So we've titled this episode. Why wrestle with a vote? Well, of course, I'm speaking about Curtis Peterson from the inspectors of election. I've seen Curtis at Cai national trade shows, wherever it appears in the country, over decades, starting from the early days when online voting was novel, and nowadays, the firm has grown and matured with the industry, and he's serving clients all around the country with confidence and efficiency, with an entire team supporting all their projects. There's so many types of elections and ways you can stumble setting up a vote of any kind, whether it's getting quorum or an election of new board members seeking approval for a special assessment, or any one of these different types of voting situations where you need to reach out to your ownership in an official manner. Need to get it done, and get it done in a way that there is no question of the validity the results, so you don't have to do it over again. Well, we're here weekly, so if you missed last week's episode number 155 with two banking professionals about the riskiness of relying on getting a bank loan, you missed hearing that about 50% of loans get denied. So if you're relying on a loan, raise your assessments now in preparation, that's because the money to pay for a project or repay the loan that you're trying to get that's going to need to come from somewhere. It needs to come from your association, homeowner members. To catch that episode or any other prior episode, take a moment after today's program to listen from our podcast website, Hoa insights.org, or watch on our YouTube channel. But better yet, subscribe from any of the major podcast platforms or our YouTube channel so you don't miss any future episodes. Becoming a subscriber also increases the podcasts ranking and search engines, helping others find this free resource so they can be better equipped to lead their association. And those of you watching on YouTube can see the HOA insights mug that I have here, that I got from our merch store, which you can browse through from our Hoa insights.org website, or the link in our show notes, you'll find we have some great free stuff there, like board member zoom backgrounds and some specialty items for sale, like this mug. So go to the merch store, see what we have for sale, at least download a free zoom background for use in your next online meeting. Well, we enjoy hearing from you responding to the issues you're facing at your association. So if you have a hot topic, a crazy story, or a question you'd like us to address, you can contact us at 805-203-3130, or email us at podcast at Hoa insights.org, but today's episode is on me, and checking in with Curtis. He's part of my circle of friends and industry resources, and he's also one of the sponsors of this webinar. He said he was crazy busy, and I was interested about that when we're recording this, it's in April, and so I was trying to think, why is he crazy busy? So want to find out the problems he's solving, the boards he's serving. So welcome back to the program. Curtis. Tell me right here at the start, what's causing the inspectors of election to be so busy right now?

Kurtis Peterson: 4:39

Well, you know, springtime is, is normally a busy time for us. We have a lot of large associations that are that are conducting their annual meetings and and election of directors, and so, you know, we're doing a lot of production, getting getting product out the door, as well as facilitating. For the execution of the tabulation for those, for those large elections as well. So just a lot of work and lot of new clients coming in, especially with the advent of online voting in California. And since we've been, you know, performing online elections across the country since 2010 you know, we were pretty prominent in that arena. So just, you know, a lot of lot of moving parts, crazy time of the year

Robert Nordlund: 5:34

that's interesting. Well, in the reserve study business, our busy time is in advance of the fiscal year end. So with most associations having a December 31 fiscal year end, our busy time is in the summer and fall. And so it sounds like after they close and they get to January, February, then it becomes annual meeting time, and that's where

Kurtis Peterson: 5:56

you fit in. Yeah, not only, not only annual meetings, but you know, we've been increasingly busy throughout the year with with a lot of amendments to governing documents, a lot of special assessments, especially here in California, and other variety of votes, some you know require true membership approval, Whether that's capital improvement, you know, grant of exclusive use. You know, some of these other approval votes by the membership. So lots of things, a lot of things going on in associations right now. You know, I don't think

Robert Nordlund: 6:33

I was aware that California had, I don't want to say banned, but online voting wasn't an option in California, so with that legislative change, yeah,

Kurtis Peterson: 6:47

yeah, that happened at the beginning of 2025, okay, cool.

Robert Nordlund: 6:51

So you've been able to do online voting in California, and so being positioned where you are, a lot of California associations are all of a sudden knocking on your door.

Kurtis Peterson: 7:04

Yeah. And you know, we've been preparing for California to allow for online voting for really quite some time. Okay? And you know, have had our platform in place. Part of the biggest problem with with the California online voting is the actual legislation itself. You know, elections in California are difficult to begin with, with just regular paper voting, and the new law is, is a little bit makes it, makes it more tricky. It's not very streamlined, and hopefully they're going to clean that up. I've seen inklings of that, and I'm trying to get involved to help them smooth out some of that language so it's a cleaner process for everybody, and especially the voter. Because right now, the California online elections are they're just difficult, got it. They're just

Robert Nordlund: 7:56

tough, that's got it. We see that again in our world, when the legislators all of a sudden want to legislate something with respect to reserves, and the people writing those laws are not really sure what a condo is, and I imagine it's the same thing that, yeah,

Kurtis Peterson: 8:14

I don't know where they come up with some of this stuff, to be honest with you, one of the things that you Can't do online in California is a special assessment vote that has to be paper, really? Yeah, yep. So that why that is, I couldn't say, other than the fact that it's dealing with a lot of money, or specifically money for the associations. But nobody's given me an answer on that, and I don't expect they will maybe it was to ease the process of allowing for online voting in California, because there's been a lot of kickback in previous years for that to happen.

Robert Nordlund: 8:51

Can we say pushback and not kickback?

Kurtis Peterson: 8:55

Pushback is probably a more appropriate term, especially when

Robert Nordlund: 8:59

we're talking about money here.

Kurtis Peterson: 9:01

It's been a lot of pushback, absolutely, but here we are. So they took that element out of it and massaged other other areas of the language in the Civil Code, just to accommodate for it. But it really needs to be cleaned up to make the elections in California, especially online, a far more streamlined process?

Robert Nordlund: 9:23

Well, I would think that just as a culture, we are comfortable buying things off eBay from a stranger at a negotiated price. We're comfortable buying things from Amazon. We're comfortable checking our bank balances online,

Kurtis Peterson: 9:39

yeah, absolutely, and processing processing money with the IRS online. Oh, gee, yeah. Who didn't do that yesterday? Yeah, did you write a check? I don't know. I didn't write a check. I was

Robert Nordlund: 9:50

online for our audience. We're recording this on April 16. So yes, yesterday was Tax Day. We have a number of companies, and some of them were. Checks, and because I made a run to the post office yesterday, and some of them were online, and I think they just differed in different states and different requirements. But yeah, we we move a lot of money electronically, and Zell and Venmo, we're doing so much electronically, I would expect that an election could be so much more efficient done online. Am I missing something?

Kurtis Peterson: 10:25

No, sir, no. It is 100% you know, there's some, some associations. We don't touch any paper ballots. It's, it's either all online or it's not at all. So I did, you know, that's just the way it is. And they get Satan turnout, and everybody seems happy with it. There's some election companies out there that don't touch paper ballots. They only provide online voting structures. It's the way the world. You know, everybody works online.

Robert Nordlund: 10:59

Yeah. So you're saying that the inspectors of election also supports associations when they have

Kurtis Peterson: 11:06

paper ballots? Yeah, you know, in California, it's going to be a hybrid. Pretty much all of the time, there's different levels of hybrid. There's partial hybrid and there's full hybrid. In California, it'll be a partial hybrid scenario. You know, even in a 20 unit Association, you're going to have one member that doesn't have an email address or opts out of voting electronically. So you know, you're creating one election package, one paper election package for that one member, and then the rest vote online. So you know, you just got to take it as it goes.

Robert Nordlund: 11:41

Yeah, I don't think I'd really appreciated that that in your little 20 unit hypothetical, there you're almost running two elections in that case,

Kurtis Peterson: 11:54

and then, yeah, that's exactly what you well, you know to some degree that that is what it is. I mean, you've got to tabulate both, right? You've got to set up both. You got to set up a paper election package, and you got to create the online election package. They have to mirror each other, and then you're facilitating both simultaneously. And we've done that since day one. Really, we've always run a hybrid scenario, but it's, you know, frustrating to create an election package for one or two people, you know,

Robert Nordlund: 12:24

well, there goes the secret vote. You know, well, to

Kurtis Peterson: 12:30

some degree for ballot,

Robert Nordlund: 12:33

yeah, there was 19 and one. Everyone knows who that number one was. It was unit number 13.

Kurtis Peterson: 12:38

Who just, well, we follow the construct of the Civil Code and says that, you know, you put out a ballot that doesn't have any identifying information of the voter on it.

Robert Nordlund: 12:48

That's good point, except that it's the only one that came in with a postmark.

Kurtis Peterson: 12:53

Right, from our perspective as the inspector of election, when we produce the results, we don't tell anybody whether they voted via paper or online, here's results, right? So even though there was that one paper voter, you know, I guess we would know, because it'd be the only one, but that certainly would information

Robert Nordlund: 13:10

that would be shared. That's a good point. That's another reason to have an election company facilitating this, because it's not like all the ballots are going to George the president's house, because otherwise, George the President would know exactly what's going on with that one. Tell me, every time I talk to you about the actual process of doing an election, I'm amazed how complicated it is. So are there some clients that come to you and say, we need your help, and you look at what they've been doing and you're saying, I'm surprised you made it this long without us, or is there some things that make you think that this Association's election process is doomed from the start?

Kurtis Peterson: 13:57

Well, you know, we don't usually look at previous election product when we get a new client per se. You know, we just kind of work them into our realm of what we know is legal, not only in accordance with their governing documents, but also with the state statute or civil code here in California that we need to accommodate. So whatever they've done in the past may be changed. You know, a lot of times we don't know whether they've been doing it properly or not. Sometimes we will request something from a previous year to make sure that the structure that we're putting together this year is coalescent with what they've done previously. And when I say something like that, an example would be, well, how many open positions did you put up for election last year? If it's a five member board and they're staggered, and last year they had, you know, three open positions. For a two year term. Then this year, we know that we would have two open positions for a two year, so we may request it in that, in that sense. And sometimes, yeah, we have to roll our eyes and say, oh my, what happened here? This is, this is gonna look a little bit different this year, no doubt, a lot cleaner and and, you know, just, just our balloting process and the fact that we have a animal ballot versus, you know, check marks or ticks on an eight and a half by 11 piece of papers. You know, it's just, it's kind of a real learning curve, and a good one for people saying, Well, why didn't we do it like this before? So you know, having, having being our 20th year now, Robert, I don't know if you knew that, but we started in 2006 we're celebrating our 20th year.

Robert Nordlund: 15:55

I thought you said since 2010

Kurtis Peterson: 15:57

that's when we started our online voting. Was in 2010 but we we started the company in 2006 Oh, congratulations.

Robert Nordlund: 16:05

Happy anniversary. Yeah,

Kurtis Peterson: 16:07

thank you. Yeah. So we've seen a lot, done a lot, and we've, you know, seen what's what works and what doesn't, and what's what's legal and what's not, you know, yeah, I

Robert Nordlund: 16:19

would imagine there's a pretty healthy chunk of your clients that you come in, you bring order to the situation, and just like you said a moment ago, they realize, oh, wow, there's law about this. And why are we doing this? You say, Well, it's been law in your state for seven years now. And they scratch their head and say, okay, they bury that thought and glad that they didn't have it contested previously. Well, let me ask, is having an Independent Election? I got at least a couple questions. Is it more valuable to have an Independent Election supervisor for a small association where you don't want to be bumping elbows you know each other too much, or is it more important? With a large Association, where, if it's a couple 1000 people, then I don't mean to say this casually, but if you miss count by one or two votes, it's almost no big deal. The majority is the majority, and it's going to work out. Is there one or the other that is actually clearly more important? And I just don't get it?

Kurtis Peterson: 17:25

Well, I don't know if one or the other is really more important. The smaller the association, the more contentious it can be, right? Because you're always seems to be somebody that's at odds with the other ones. And we've done associations as small as three units, right? Okay, you know. And they came to us because they knew that they couldn't handle it internally. And this was for special assessment, you know. And that requires more than 50% to vote. And of course, it requires then more than 50% of those that do vote to approve, okay, so when a three unit Association, more than 50% is two, yep. But if you only have two ballots, you can't get that measure to pass, because you can't get a majority vote, even if they, you know, well, I suppose you could voted if they both voted for it. So, you know, it's it's tough in those situations, and so for an independent third party like us to handle it, it takes all that guesswork out, right? We're following the law. These guys know what they're doing. They've done it over and over and over, and this is going to be a valid election at the end, because it is an independent third party. They did follow the law. There's no room for contest, right? I like that.

Robert Nordlund: 18:47

Well, I'm looking at the clock. It's time to take a quick break and have one of our here time to hear from one of our general sponsors. But I want to come back, and I want to talk about that. What's a contentious voting situation look like? So everyone will be right back in a few minutes with more common sense for common areas.

Paige Daniels: 19:05

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Robert Nordlund: 19:37

and we're back. Well we're discussing over the break, Curtis and I on the value of the work he does. And even in the first half of the program, my anxiety was going down just thinking of having someone like inspectors of election on my team. So Curtis, you tell me the value of having someone like inspectors of election on their team. So. Specifically in a situation where it's a sensitive vote, maybe a special assessment, or, you know, it's going to be a contested election, there's been a opposition faction trying to win votes, and you know, it's got to be right. Tell me how you bring value to the table there?

Kurtis Peterson: 20:18

Well, you know, one of the biggest values that we set for starting out was just that, you know, we're an independent third party. We don't have any interest in the outcome of any of the elections. Our only interest is to make sure that they're facilitated legally and fairly to the members of the association. So I think that's where the real value is, and value we've added would be the fact that we've got a ton of experience. We've been doing this long time, you know, we're familiar with, you know, governing documents, how to read them, what to look for, and then, of course, the state statutes and civil codes, and how that affects, you know, how we're going to, you know, conduct the election, whatever that may be. And when we're talking about contentious elections, you know, the toughest ones are always the recalls, right? Special assessments are interesting as well, because you're dealing with money. But you know, the platform for a special assessment is usually set forth very, very clearly if there's a reason for this, and boards are doing it Nilly.

Robert Nordlund: 21:29

Willy. Roofs, leaking, folks,

Kurtis Peterson: 21:32

roofs, roofs need repair. You know, our reserve funds are crazy low. We got to get those back up to where they need to be. No, we've got failing pipes, you know, all kinds of things for a special assessment. But the recall elections really seem to get, you know, personal. That's personal for people, as you know, the people that are signing the petitions to get to get these board members recall, you know are very serious about what they believe the reason for these board members to be recalled, and we just don't get involved in any of that. We're not interested in the politics of any one Association. We're interested in facilitating a fair and legal election for everybody, abiding by their governing documents and abiding by the state statutes.

Robert Nordlund: 22:22

And, yeah, you don't know who the good guys are. The bad guys are the we don't want to know that's not the opposition party may be the good guys coming in to rescue an association, and the opposition may be the bad guys just hating their HOA running on the election platform that they're going to disband the association. And we,

Kurtis Peterson: 22:45

you know, we, we tend to see an uptick in in recall elections after special assessments.

Robert Nordlund: 22:54

Interesting, but I'm not surprised.

Kurtis Peterson: 22:56

It's like, oh, you're having a special assessment. Well, should we go ahead and get your pricing for a recall right after

Robert Nordlund: 23:02

Yeah, I get it. Well, let me ask you about that you handle voting. You handle elections. I wonder if your end product is really peace of mind that you are providing transparency. You're providing confidence that this portion of a board's responsibilities is going to be a, okay, no special interest involved, yeah?

Kurtis Peterson: 23:26

You know, yeah, not only the boards, you know, like that, that they're, they've got a company like ours, you know, conducting the election, but, but also management, you know, nobody's pointing fingers at management, saying, Hey, you're doing this, or you've got all the ballots. Why are they going to you know, where are they? What's what's our cow? Where's mine? You know, you're mishandling them. And so when the board in management passes that off to an independent third party like us, yeah, it is, it's, it should be, if it's not, you know, a sigh of relief, saying, Thank God we don't have to deal with this, you know. But you know, on the flip side, I've seen other associations that they grip on to, you know, some of the control of these elections, you know, with an iron fist, and it's like, oh, you get it. You get it. You don't. You don't need to tell us how to do our job here, you know, albeit you're the lead of the election committee, you know, you don't have any real responsibilities if you're going to contract with us, you know, and still oversee the vetting of the candidates, or you can, you know, conduct the candidate forum, you know, whatever the case may be, but we're going to be preparing the election packages. You can review it for accuracy. We're going to be sending out all the ballots. They're going to come back to us, and then, you know, we're going to be tabulating the results and then providing them to you for announce. Met, or whatever the case may be. So you know that's a hands off approach for the associations, which is how it was designed in the California Civil Code, in any way that an independent third party must, you know, perform this process. Now, you know the state or the civil code does allow for a volunteer homeowner to do that, but having done this for 20 years, I can't imagine anybody that would want to take on this kind of responsibility and the potential for litigation really right if they don't know what they're doing, and they don't, they're not privy to the Civil Code, and they're governing documents, and the managers facilitating in seeing here they're putting their head on the chopping block.

Unknown: 25:44

Yeah, that's a lot of risk.

Kurtis Peterson: 25:46

Big deal. Yeah, do that as a volunteer. That's crazy.

Robert Nordlund: 25:51

Well, I think there's some things that are pretty obvious that volunteers shouldn't be doing. They shouldn't be putting a new roof on the building that requires special insurance, special skills. It's not something you want the average person up there doing and falling off a roof and just everything unwinding. And I think elections is moving into that area where my sense is it's becoming more and more something that the average board member, the average volunteer, shouldn't be messing with this. They're just too much of a minefield.

Kurtis Peterson: 26:22

Yeah, I don't recommend it. You know, there are some associations, you know, I don't want to blanket every Association out there in that fashion. I mean, there's some that run smooth, you know, they consistently have a good people stepping up and, you know, serving on the board, and they don't need our services, and that's all there is to it. And I'm comfortable with that.

Robert Nordlund: 26:47

We love those associations, doesn't?

Kurtis Peterson: 26:48

It doesn't go that way forever, you know? I mean, change is inevitable. Something's gonna change. And you know, you do only takes one, you know, one individual and an association to really make things interesting. And it's been my experience that there's always at least one, at least one in every Association, and that's regardless of the size, right? Interesting. You know, I just don't, don't get caught.

Robert Nordlund: 27:17

Don't get caught. Well, how much of this movement towards needing inspectors of election is driven by legislation, or is it the rising incivility that we see in our society?

Kurtis Peterson: 27:30

Well, in California, it certainly was legislation in 2020, that came around that required that nobody under contract. And this is California. Only California says that anybody under contract with the association cannot act as the inspector of election other than being the inspector of election. So management companies used to be primarily spearheading the the voting processes for their associations, but when that that law passed and that they could no longer do it, and I think that's a good thing, and I'm not saying that because it affected our business one way or another. I just working with managers in this industry, know that they're real close to the boards, and if the boards don't like something. It's a real pressure on on the manager to accommodate them to some degree. Now, whether that affects the outcome of an election or not, I wouldn't say, and I couldn't say, Yeah, but they've got to live with those boards, right? We just come in and do the election and then we walk away. So we're not we're not stuck in there. If something doesn't go the way the board likes it, next thing you know, the manager, the manager or the management company is out the door.

Robert Nordlund: 28:47

Well, you've mentioned many times your experience, specifically in California. And you and I are from California, full disclosure. Are there other states that are not allowing online voting at this time. Is it a checkerboard or is it majority type situation?

Kurtis Peterson: 29:04

No. California was the only one that I know of that prohibited or didn't allow. I mean, no, the way that the civil code is set up that it was only paper valotting. There's other states that don't say either way. Okay, you know that you just have to get a ballot out there. Got it. And then other states came came into online voting, like Florida quite a while ago, 2015 2017 something like that, or maybe even earlier, where they implemented online voting, and they did it in what I felt to be a very nice, structured fashion that it was more of an opt in scenario. Or if you wanted to vote electronically, you certainly could, but you needed to opt in to do so got it. And then once you opted in, you were, you were, you know, you're opted in for good, unless you'd like to opt out again, yeah, which is

Robert Nordlund: 29:59

like you. Said, it creates a hybrid situation where you have some people voting the old way and some people voting the new way. And I think of me in I want to say regular government elections, I'm a permanent mail in voter. I don't like to go to the voting booth and stand in line. I like to lay out my options and figure them out and take the time I need, and when I'm done, I pop it in the mail. And that's a nice thing to be able to do. I think one last thing we need to talk about is, and you mentioned it a few times, making sure the candidates are selected correctly, that they they're the right candidates for the right reasons. How much, how long in advance of an election does someone need to reach out to you? Sounds like there's a lot of prep involved.

Kurtis Peterson: 30:49

Will it that's that hard to say? It is. Well, it's hard to say. It's not hard to say for me, but it's not an easy answer. It's not a, you know, for every election you call us nine months ahead of time, or every election you call us six months ahead of time. It depends on, number one, the state. Number two, it depends on the voting scenario. Whether that's an election of director, there's an amendment, you know, a special assessment, whatever the case may be. And then, you know, in California here, there's a election by acclimation, where you really need to start it early, because the nomination period is 90 days. Okay, so you've got a three month nomination period. So if you're planning on doing election by acclimation in California, specifically, yeah, you better be calling us seven, seven to nine months ahead of time so we can prepare appropriately.

Robert Nordlund: 31:46

Acclimation is election

Kurtis Peterson: 31:49

by acclimation is when you go through the nomination process and you'd have the same number or fewer candidates than you do open positions on the board,

Robert Nordlund: 31:57

three people for three spots. Why are we voting?

Kurtis Peterson: 32:00

Right? Yeah, there's no need to put out a ballot in that case. So other states, it's automatic, and it's, you know, a domination period of 30 days, or sometimes even 15, you know, that allows just automatically for election by acclimation. But, you know, in this state, specifically California, it's a much longer process, and I think they're working on changing that. I have seen the language for that where they're going to knock the 90 days down to a normal 30 day period.

Robert Nordlund: 32:29

Advantageous. Sacramento is listening to this.

Kurtis Peterson: 32:33

Yeah, you know, you don't need 90 days to figure out whether you're going to run for the board, right? And, you know, the fun thing is, is even after 90 days, we get these candidates that come in five minutes late, you know, we've got a five o'clock deadline and this date, and they come in a day later, or five minutes late after the deadline. And, you know, you had 90 days, yeah. So it's almost like too long anyway, right? You know, 60 days would probably be even. It would be better, but 30 days is appropriate. And if you're serious about running for the board, and you're a viable candidate, in my mind, anyway, that you take that seriously to serve your community, and you get your nomination in a timely fashion. You know, if you've got bigger things going on and you don't got time to get your nomination in, then guess what? You know, maybe, maybe you should focus on something else. Then, yeah, serving your association. And I don't want to prohibit anybody from doing this important volunteer work for their association. Don't get me wrong. I just, I always find it funny that after 90 days, we get a couple people. You know, from time to time we get somebody that comes in a few minutes late, yeah, well, someone,

Robert Nordlund: 33:48

yeah, someone, I can imagine, someone on the East Coast Association who lives out in the west coast, and he'll, they will miss it by the difference between Eastern Time and Pacific time, just because they're chasing a deadline, yeah, but we're all about trying to encourage and equip board members on this podcast. So we want the best board members. We want the right board members sitting on the board, and it's just great courage to have you on the program to talk about insights on how to do this whole process. Well, any closing thoughts to add at this time?

Kurtis Peterson: 34:24

You know, I just want to reiterate that, you know, we're here, you know, really trying to serve the association the best way that that we can. You know, we, we really appreciate all the all the board members that do spend their time and efforts trying to help not only their association, but the industry, fantastic.

Robert Nordlund: 34:44

Well, if you'd like to get in touch with Curtis or learn more about online voting, you can go to their website simply enough, at the inspectors of election.com just write it out, and that's their URL. The. Inspectors of election.com. Well, we certainly hope you learned some HOA insights from our discussion today that helps you bring common sense and maybe some peace of mind to your association and your common areas. We look forward to having you join us for another great episode next week.

Announcer: 35:18

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