Sandra Gottlieb: 0:00

If something looks dangerous, we are not about advising obstruction. We're about advising lawful caution, protection of members' rights and privacy, and I said before constitutional rights. We don't want to decide that at the front desk, but if there is a threat of force, get out of their way. Leave it to the attorneys for the association to clean it up after the fact.

Announcer: 0:26

HOA Insights is brought to you by five companies

that care about board members: 0:29

Association Insights and Marketplace, Association Reserves, Community Financials, Kevin Davis Insurance Services, and the Inspectors of Election. You'll find links to their website and social media in the show notes.

Welcome back to Hoa insights: 0:42

Common Aense for Common Areas.

Robert Nordlund: 0:45

I'm Robert Nordlund, and I'm here today for episode number 157, with a prominent industry attorney I've had the good fortune to know for decades. I heard her speak on this topic at the CAI law conference, where I was fascinated. After the program, I went right to the front and asked her if she could present the same material to our podcast audience. And this is because complying with law enforcement or people in uniform is something that we just do as part of living in our ordered society, but that has traditionally been for issues having to do with life safety. You got to think about letting a fireman into your house, or when a policeman pulls you over for speeding, or when the FBI raids the office of a corrupt politician, things like that that you want to support. So without touching the political sensitivities of this topic today, we'll learn if we should put ice officials in the same automatic compliance category, or if they belong in a different category. So today I have with me and with all of us here, Sandra Gottlieb, a founding partner and the senior managing partner of the prominent California law firm, sweatelson Gottlieb, sweleson Gottlieb exclusively represents community associations across California, and Sandra is also a member of the College of community association lawyers, also known as C Cal or c, c, a, l, c Cal members are the top approximately 200 attorneys who've been recognized for their excellence in the practice of community association law. So Sandra is an influential force in the community association industry, and I'm lucky, and we're lucky to have her here as a guest, and I've had the pleasure of enjoying her as a friend for many years. But before we get to today's program, let me remind you of last week's program, number 156, with Curtis Peterson of the inspectors of election, if you ever put in some long hours preparing for an election vote or special assessment vote, or if you were anxious about getting the result right, or if it could stand up the challenge. That's why the inspectors of election exists. They make those problems go away. Listening to that episode will help you learn another way you can simplify your life as a board member and lower your concerns about something complicated and getting that done well. So if you missed that episode or any other prior episode, take a moment after today's program to listen from our podcast website, Hoa insights.org, or watch on our YouTube channel. But better yet, subscribe from any of the major podcast platforms so you don't miss any future episodes. Becoming a subscriber also increases the podcast ranking in search results, helping others find this free resource so they can be better equipped to lead their association. Well, those of you watching on YouTube can see the HOA insights mug that I have here. I get a kick out of it regularly that I got from our merch store, which you can browse through from our Hoa insights.org website, or the link in our show notes, you find that we have some great free stuff there, like board member zoom backgrounds and some specialty items for sale, like mugs. So go with the merch store, see what we have for sale, and at least download a free zoom background. Well, we enjoy hearing from you and responding to the issues you're facing at your association. So if you have a hot topic, a crazy story, or a question that you'd like us to address, you can contact us at 805-203-3130, or email us at podcast at Hoa insights.org, but today's episode is on me. As I said moments ago, I was fascinating listening to Sandra's presentation at the CAO law conference, thinking about its implications on my way of thinking, my way of living, and the implications for all my clients. So Sandra, welcome to the program and tell me there's got to be a story about what got you started on this road to becoming an expert on ice and community associations.

Sandra Gottlieb: 4:43

First of all, I want to say how honored I am to be here, and I mean that sincerely when I reflect on how many years we've known each other and grown in this industry and what you bring to this industry, it truly is amazing. So thanks for this opportunity.

Robert Nordlund: 4:57

You're very kind Well, you know, I'm that kind.

Sandra Gottlieb: 4:59

You know, I only say what I believe. So how did this happen? For me? It happened because I received a number of phone calls all in the middle of the night. Little ping on my phone causes me to look over being a parent. You're always a parent. You never shut off completely. And I'd see general managers of high rises throughout California that we work with, and they were all 911, type of calls got up called back in the middle of the night, and I realized that ice was using the play used by the FBI for two decades, which is come into associations in the middle of the night, when the A and B teams are gone, when the skeleton staff are there not anything wrong with them, but not the people who are equipped to people who are showing them a badge or not saying they have a badge, showing them in their face, or not saying they have the authority to be there, let us in. It created panic where Panic was not necessary, and I realized the tools that we have had for the longest period of time. How do you deal when the police come or the sheriff come, when they make a demand for footage? Is we say, Where's your warrant that doesn't change with ice. That's led me to really study this on both a national and state level, put together a proposal for Cai national, was honored to share the podium with two other great presenters, and we taught about it. We had a full house with attorneys who didn't realize at the time this was a story and the skill set they had to bring back to their clients, right?

Robert Nordlund: 6:36

Well, that's That's fascinating. I I'm glad to hear you keep your cell phone on and available, that's a wonderful thing, but it keeps making me think, have I learned the wrong thing for years, but you gave us a clue there that we kind of already know this, we're not going to slow down a fireman when they're rushing into I hope they're going to break down my front door and take down the fire, but that clue that we already kind of know what the right thing is. And can you go a little bit further on that?

Sandra Gottlieb: 7:10

Well, sure, of course, I can. First of all, if this is not political, and I really mean that it's not political, but ice and DHS, they are no longer just abstract acronyms to community associations. So we can't pretend it's just people in uniforms without causing us to take action on information, as I said, that we already had. And the most important thing for us to know is this applies to all kinds of common interest, developments, residential, commercial, mixed use. It happens every time we face an encounter at the door. And what we'll do by talking about the things that we already know is try to demystify this so that associations can know what they can and can't do and what their risks are and what they aren't are. And the distinguishing feature, however, is that ice is different because it forces us to look at a couple of things that we're not used to looking at, which is sort of the intersection when federal immigration enforcement, ice crosses, property rights, privacy laws, discrimination, discrimination laws and association governance, we don't usually look at all of that every time the fire department comes at our front door to see if we have a permit.

Robert Nordlund: 8:26

Yeah, you've given us a handful there. Intersection of ice with property, privacy, association, governments, a lot of things. So is your council just slow down, take a pause. This is not an emergency.

Sandra Gottlieb: 8:39

My Council is slow down, take a pause, and always ask this question, who are you? What agency do you belong to? Can I see documentation that supports that, and where is your warrant for access? And you alluded to something brilliant, which is, we're already doing this. How is it different? We never would let police come in and say, give us your surveillance footage without a warrant. We would never say you can come into our common area without a warrant or a subpoena for something, some court order. And so we're not treating them differently. We're treating them exactly the same with the same governance tools we already have in place.

Robert Nordlund: 9:24

And I'm thinking it's fundamentally because it's not an emergency. It's they're transacting business, and business you can do business on your schedule. Is that one way to look at it?

Sandra Gottlieb: 9:35

It is. It's an excellent way to look at it. One of the things that I'd like to say to expand upon that is the rushing factor is making mistakes, and what we are seeing that is communities are over sharing, opening up the privacy door where there's could be a potential exposure to liability if sued for violating privacy. Laws, and we don't want anybody in our associations, management or the board, to be exposed to that liability. So it is really slow down. Don't panic. Check out that authority. You want something. Tell us what you want and what your authority is for it, and we will look at it. One of the most important takeaways from today is have a policy on what to do when ice is at the door. So whoever is at the door when they're knocking will be able to pull out that policy and see step one, step two, steps

Robert Nordlund: 10:32

So that's kind of like your emergency policy three. that everyone should have. What happens if there's a fire, we do this, we do this. We do this. An earthquake, a power outage. You smell smoke. What any of these things you should know what to do. So it's not catching you by surprise, even if it's, and I, like you, alluded even if it's the night shift where they're trying to probe for a weakling to get entered to the association

Sandra Gottlieb: 10:56

exactly, if you don't have a protocol, you're literally negotiating constitutional issues at the front desk of your associate not a good not a good thing to do.

Robert Nordlund: 11:05

Yeah, we don't. We don't want that happening. I don't think front desk people are the right people to be. And again, no offense. You need front desk people. You need and in town home, if there's someone trying to buzz in to the gate saying I am the sheriff, or I'm ice, or whatever, just you want to slow things down. Okay, I get that. Now, one thing that I caught my attention at your seminar was, when I think of ice, I think of, well, yeah, I'm a middle aged white man, so English speaking, so a lot of this hasn't touched me personally. So I think of other people. I think of other places. I think of borders. I think of people trying to smuggle in things at the airport, just a lot of things that don't touch me. But now this is my association and the ICE agents. When I see pictures, I see a lot of them dressed like a SWAT team. I would think that would put us on our heels and make us think, uh oh, there's an emergency here. There's a rush. Is that part of their strategy,

Sandra Gottlieb: 12:18

from my investigation and analysis, that's absolutely part of their strategy. That's how they get people to let them in and sort of do their bidding for them, so that they can get access into that community. It's not our job to do their job for them, and when they at the beginning, let's be honest with each other, they weren't dressed like law enforcement agency. They were dressed like thugs. They were dressed like people who were grabbing people and throwing them in back of trunks, and instead they were putting them in vans or in the backseat of a car. I can't even imagine the fear factor of your next door neighbor, just because he might be a brown man in his 50s or 60s who's born in this country, whose parents were born in this country, who's gotten caught up in all the perilous politics of all of this, how scary that must be. So it was really hard to take away that fear when I was analyzing this, to really say what's in front of us so that we can make sure that we don't make mistakes, to protect our associations, our board members and our personnel.

Robert Nordlund: 13:22

So what are we protecting here? It's not like we're the place is on fire, so we're not protecting property, but we're protecting our owners. We're protecting our staff. Are we protecting the business providers, the landscapers, the team doing the elevator modernization. Who are we protecting?

Sandra Gottlieb: 13:44

So we are protecting everybody. I'm going to talk about the landscapers first, because this has happened to me twice, two in different take on this. Once was the association landscaper. We had a planned development, rather large planned community, and they came in in vans. I believe there were three vans, and they came in. They literally rounded up all of the landscape personnel of our vendors, who were hysterical as they were being taken away, and nobody could have the time, the or the ability to make calls. Fortunately, residents ran to the General Manager, they do have an on site location, and they said, this is happening. And got us involved. The other situation was even more tricky, and that was the landscaper of a homeowner. So ice came in, and it was a third party. It was the homeowner's vendor, their employee. How does this even touch us? That might be a distance too far for it touching us, for the vendors, employees who work for the association, we have different codes, even the Unruh Civil Rights Act, that allow and guarantee people the right to work. In a hostile, free work environment. Ah, who would think about that? Do we have intercede to protect those people so we are not the recipients of a HUD claim. Who's thinking about that at 3am so you asked who are protecting? And the answer is probably all of the above, but our client, mine and yours is the it the homeowners association, and then the corporation, and then everything that stems from the it Okay, in those two HOA or planned development situations, was there a gate? How did they get through the front gate? In the situation where the they were the association landscapers, the personnel allowed them in at the front gate because they said they were there on an emergency, forgot all protocols and opened the gate in the situation where it was the home owners, landscaper. It was a non gated community, okay?

Robert Nordlund: 15:58

So if we're talking about the homeowners landscaper. That means that could be a homeowner's domestic help, housekeeper. It could be anything, okay, anybody. And we live in a world. Our current world is where there's a lot of lot of the jobs here in our country are done by how do I say the this people from another country, whether here, legally or illegally, is really not the point, but they're doing a lot of the jobs that make this country run. And I didn't know that there's laws that say that you have a right to a hostile, free work environment. Isn't that something? Yeah, I know that as a boss, I'm supposed to have safety training and sexual harassment training, those kinds of things regularly. I think it's every year, but I can see the extension of that is, yeah, hostile, fear free. Fear free. Yeah, well, I'm certainly glad there's people like you around and Sandra, I'm looking at the clock here and thinking that it's probably time to take a midpoint sponsor break. So let's do just exactly that. It's time to take a quick break to hear from one of our generous sponsors, after which we'll be back with more common sense for common areas and the tricky topic of what to do when ice comes to the door.

Kevin Davis: 17:13

Hi. I'm Kevin Davis, the president of Kevin Davis Insurance Services. Our experienced team of underwriters will help you when you get that declination, we provide the voice of reason, someone who will stand by you. Our underwriters bring years of knowledge to our clients that can't be automated by technology or driven by price. As a proud and women's company, we bring true value to your community association clients. We are your community association insurance experts,

Robert Nordlund: 17:41

and we're back. Well, Sandra, before the break, we were talking about the client is the association. So, yes, we have to be careful that the client and everyone who's underneath it is somewhat we are responsible for. But take me to the issue of access control. You talked about the ice getting into the association, whether it's a front door, front gate. Are there keywords or things to look for when you have a situation on your hands?

Sandra Gottlieb: 18:13

Yeah, the first thing that you need to to look for is, do they have a warrant? We all watch TV. We all know those words, even if it's not part of your everyday vernacular, and there's two types of warrants, there's an administrative warrant, and that's issued by Immigration and Customs Enforcement and judicial which is signed by a federal judge. Administrative warrants have no authorization powers for ice to actually enter private or restricted access areas, which most common areas are in gated or secured communities. So associations have the right, and frankly, I think the obligation to ask to see, as I mentioned before, the identification ask not just to see that warrant, but to have a copy of it so we have it as part of the corporate record and consult with counsel before granting access. Slow your role. It is not where the fire department is at the door and you open the door or they break the door down. Fear has created this anxious response to do things before we really need to do so policies will help us adhere to the slow the roll philosophy, because we can just look at it. Oh, did we get the copy of that? Do we ask for that? So I think that really helps. Robert, yeah, and

Robert Nordlund: 19:35

I'm thinking I've watched enough TV to see the good guys outside the door, and they bang on the front door, and we have a warrant, and the homeowner, or the bad guys usually inside, you know, they start running out the back door. But it was key for you to say that there are two different types of warrants, and who am I to know if it's the administrative warrant or the judicial warrant? I don't know, and I wouldn't that's not my job to know. And my first reaction is to, I want to call my attorney again. You keep saying, slow your roll. Slow it down. This is not an emergency, so let's not make an emergency, and let's not do something wrong by making it a problem, making it a bigger problem, exactly 100% correct.

Sandra Gottlieb: 20:20

But we are about educating our staff so that they can see a picture of what an administrative warrant looks like and what a judicial warrant looks like. So if somebody is throwing the administrative warrant in front of them, saying, hey, you know this is an administrative warrant, I'm going to call the attorney. But this doesn't actually require us to grant you access so that they are informed when they are actually making those statements. I do want to say for the record to protect you, to protect me, and to protect everybody who is listening, no matter what we tell you today, if something looks dangerous, we are not about advising obstruction. We're about advising lawful caution, protection of members' rights and privacies. And I said before constitutional rights, we don't want to decide that at the front desk, but if there is a threat of force, get out of their way. Leave it to the attorneys for the association to clean it up after the fact.

Robert Nordlund: 21:19

Sandra, I was doing a site inspection at a high end planned development, multi million dollar homes, doing my pre site inspection, meeting with the general manager, and a call came in from the gate. I could hear their voice, all excited. There's a van of FBI agents here saying they want to get in. Do we let them in? And the GM said they're the good guys. Let them in, and that was that. And I still can hear that they're the good guys, but you've said it a number of times here, slow things down, find out who they are. They're ice. Oh, why are you here? Oh, you have a warrant, and we got to erase that automatic thing that we've heard in our brain that when someone throws a warrant in your face, or your search warrant, or whatever it is, you let him in that. In this case, you say, okay, that's nice. Let me get a copy and let me contact my attorney. There is no emergency here,

Sandra Gottlieb: 22:14

exactly, whether the good guys or not. You know, it's really important. I really want to say that. I am not saying that ice are the bad guys. I am saying our introduction to ice as a country was not a good rollout for who ice was and what their role is in the protections of our rights and in our government, and so it created the perception that those were the bad guys at the gates. I didn't call them the bad guys at the gates. I called them ice at the gates. And I did that on purpose.

Robert Nordlund: 22:50

Yeah, well, we need protections in our society. We are an ordered society. We need law enforcement. We need fire thinking. We need the postal people out here. My son's in the military. We need that also. It's just how an ordered society runs. But I think we need to be careful, as you said, that ice is not don't automatically throw them into the same bucket as policemen and FBI and those things that we've known for a long time, because ice is something kind of newish. Is that fair?

Sandra Gottlieb: 23:22

It's completely fair with no established training protocol to be hired as an ice officer. Let that sink in for just a moment.

Robert Nordlund: 23:33

Yikes. Okay, so we don't want our clients, your my clients, or even non clients. Everyone listening to this to automatically jump in and comply, slow them down, find out who they are. What reason do they have to be here? Get a copy of it and slow it down and push that to your attorney.

Sandra Gottlieb: 23:52

All of that's true. I want to say one more thing, because I failed to say it previously. Do not respond to verbal requests. Require to be in writing so that our managers or our board members, depending on the type of communities they are, are able to establish what they were asked and what they gave in response to what they were asked. Who asked it, what the warrant looked like, what information we provided in response to the warrant, and when we're talking about, as you repeated already, to slow the roll, one of the things we want to do is make sure we don't violate a homeowner or residents or even personnel's right to privacy because we overshare too quickly in a manner which we were not supposed to do.

Robert Nordlund: 24:40

My pen is about the smoke I'm taking notes so fast, okay, so, yeah, slow it down. And we need to understand this is an important factor in our world, and we just need to treat ice differently than other law enforcement agencies, and it's okay to say, and I'm thinking of a you. A nice person at the front gate, a nice person at the front desk who is just uninformed, but we just need to counsel them to slow it down. It's not an emergency. Treat them as an admin type person. What are you here for? And let me get clarification, and we'll get back to you maybe tomorrow. I'm not authorized to provide consent.

Sandra Gottlieb: 25:28

May please take down your contact information and I will make certain that whoever is authorized contacts you, and I like what you said tomorrow. So we have time to go through this process to make sure that we are responding correctly.

Robert Nordlund: 25:43

Okay, last thing, give that person the consent. Last thing, you troubled me a little bit at the beginning when you realized that there weren't a lot of attorneys who had a lot of experience. And again, this is a new thing. It's a real part of our industry. Do you go to your attorney? Answer is, yes. What do you do? If they like, Gee, I hadn't thought

Sandra Gottlieb: 26:01

Ask them to think about it. Tell them that about that. they heard about that this. Direct them to this and other, to this podcast, to Cai seminars, so that they can put a different lens on and look at these protections in a different way. Until those 3am phone calls, I hadn't thought about it either. I was forced to think about it at those times in the moment, because they were happening with rapidity, and I had to get prepared, right?

Robert Nordlund: 26:30

And that's part of the way you and I, even though we've been in this industry for many years, we have to keep adjusting, learning what the new things are, and guiding our clients safely and successfully into the future, and I still get pleasure knowing that you got your cell phone at the side of your desk. I'm glad that you're that annoying my husband, too, by the way, I understand that, but it takes people who care, and that's why we're presenting this podcast episode, because we care that our audience knows the right things and to stimulate this conversation with your attorney. So Sandra, it's great to spend a few minutes with you addressing how ice and immigration related demands have added a new layer of complexity to our lives in community associations, and what we can and should do about it. So any closing thoughts to add at this time.

Sandra Gottlieb: 27:21

Don't be scared. Don't make yourself a target. Be prepared. We all know the more prepared we are for anything, the easier it is to get through the day and to conduct the business of each one of our different jobs. And we see now that it is an imperative as community associations, that we act as communities together to get through this difficult time.

Robert Nordlund: 27:42

Fantastic. Yes, I like that. Well, if you'd like to get in touch with Sandra, remember, she's a California Attorney, you can find her in the entire team at laws for Hoa, l, a, W, O, Singler law for HOA com Cool got it. Well, we certainly hope you learned some HOA insights from our discussion today that helps you bring common sense to your common areas. And we look forward to having you join us for another great episode next week.

Announcer: 28:14

You've been listening to HOA Insights: Common Sense for Common Areas. You can listen to the show on our podcast website, Hoa insights.org, or subscribe on any of the most popular podcast platforms. You can also watch the show on our YouTube channel. Check the show notes for helpful links. If you like the show and want to support the work we do, you can do so in a number of ways. The most important thing you can do is engage in the conversation, leave a question in the comment section on our YouTube video. You can also email your questions or voicemails to podcast at Hoa insights.org or leave us a voicemail at 805-203-3130, if you gain any insights from the show, please do us a HUGE favor by sharing the show with other board members. You know, you can also support us by supporting the brands that sponsor this program. Please remember that the views and opinions expressed by the podcast do not constitute legal advice. You'll want to consult your own legal counsel before making any important decisions. Finally, this podcast was expertly mixed and mastered by Stoke Light Video & Marketing. With Stoke Light on your team, you'll reach more customers with marketing expertise that inspires action. See the show notes to connect with Stoke Light