Kevin Davis: 0:00

Because whenever you don't maintain an association, guess what happens from an insurance point of view? Your rates will go up. If I go into your community association and I do an inspection, because I'm looking at your premium of a you know $30,000, and obviously the tree has not been trimmed correctly, you know I see the gutters have not been taken care of, I see this stop sign there, but this shrubbery growing over the stop sign. I'm going, uh-oh, this is not going to work. So now your $30,000 premium you're paying now 60 or $70,000. Okay, all because you failed to maintain your association.

Announcer: 0:34

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that care about board members: 0:36

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Robert Nordlund: 0:50

Hi, I'm Robert Nordland of Association Reserves, and I'm Kevin Davis of Kevin Davis Insurance Services, and this is HOA Insights, where we promote common sense for common areas. Well, welcome to episode number 170, where we're again speaking with insurance expert and regular co-host Kevin Davis. It's been a while since Kevin and I have done a podcast together, so it's fun to be back on the show together. I feel like we're getting the band back together and having this conversation. Before we started, we were trying to remember make sure we got all the settings right, but I think we're we're good to go here. Well, Kevin and I were recently sharing how the walls around our industry are moving. Seemed like the whole situation is changing, and we wanted to have a conversation on this subject and share it with you. It used to be that board members could make decisions, good ones or bad ones, and few people knew about it. Just the members of your association or the members who cared, but that's changing with insurance companies and lenders, the banking industry, caring about your budget decisions like never before, and with significant implications. Well, to catch you up a bit, if you missed last week's episode number 169 with Helen, a recalled board member on how life has been at her association now that she's no longer on the board, and how the new board is facing exactly the same financial pressures that caused the uproar where she was recalled. They're facing the same things and dealing with the same facts. Was a fascinating conversation, and if you missed that episode or any other prior episode. Take a moment after today's program to listen from our podcast website hoa insights.org, or search for hoa insights on YouTube. But better yet, subscribe from any of the major podcast platforms, or subscribe to our podcast YouTube channel so you don't miss any future episodes. And so the podcast increases in the search rankings and becomes more findable to more board members, and that helps us in our goal to give more board members the right information at the right time to make the right decisions for their association. Those of you watching on YouTube can see the HOA Insights mug that I have here. Kevin has one too. Great, and we got that from the merch store, which you can browse through from our hoa insights. org website or the link in the show notes. Show notes, or you can simply visit to pick up some great free stuff there, like board member Zoom backgrounds that you can use for your next board meeting. Well, we enjoy hearing from you, responding to the issues you're facing at your association. That's what this podcast is all about. So, if you have a hot topic, crazy story, or a question you'd like us to address, you can always contact us at 805-203-3130 or email us at podcast at hoa insights.org. But today's program is on us. We wanted to share a few insights about what we see coming. So, Kevin, you've spoken a few times on how what a board does directly affects their premiums. When we add that to Fannie and Freddie's higher standards for condo associations, what does that start to tell you?

Kevin Davis: 3:59

Thanks, Robert, and great. It's great to be back together. It has been several months, so I love these conversations because we never know where they're going to go. Yeah. And today, what we're going to go to to me, I think today's conversation is about this, is two entities have decided that we believe that community association board members are not doing the job they should be doing, so we're going to force them to make better decisions. Those two entities happen to be lending institutions and insurance companies. What they're saying right now is that if you do not behave in what we believe is in the best interest of our organizations, we're not going to insure you. We're not going to give you a loan. That's what's created a major problem today for community associations, and you have to understand that it's such a major problem that if you don't do things the right way, if you don't enforce the rules, you don't collect assessments, you don't maintain your association, you're going to find yourself in front of a judge and a jury trying to explain. And all of a sudden, having spend 1000s and 1000s of dollars to protect that board of directors-that's

Robert Nordlund: 5:06

sobering. I think, well, Kevin, I think you and I can go back to when we were homeowners and board members and condos long, long time ago. And at that point in time, I thought I was making decisions that affected 71 homeowners at my association. That's the only audience, but I think what we're seeing now is that there are some very significant big organizations, like you said, the the lenders and the insurance companies. They're involved, and you, the board, are not just serving the homeowners, you're serving those big businesses. They have a vested interest in your association. How well are you taking care of it? Are you collecting the right amount of money so that you can provide for the needs of the association? It's no longer just your closed circle there, just you and your bunch of homeowners. Can we say most of which kind of don't care, apathetic until you raise the assessments. But now you have this other. It's like you have a a 60% homeowner here that you really need to make sure that they're happy. That you are, or maybe that's what it is like. We're dealing with a larger audience, and you have a majority board member-not a majority board member, a majority homeowner-you got to keep happy. Is that maybe another way to look at this?

Kevin Davis: 6:29

Sure, let's look at it realistically. Board members, when they become board members of community associations, right? They know they have a job. They have a fiduciary responsibility to maintain, collect assessments, enforce the rules. That's their number one responsibility.

Robert Nordlund: 6:42

Those three things you keep saying them, you keep saying them over and over again, because that's what it

Kevin Davis: 6:47

is. That's what it is. Now, just think about the people, and you just said it before. You have people who live in these community associations who don't care apathetic. I'm a business owner. You're a business owner. If you have, if you're apathetic and you have employees, guess what? Those employees to become apathetic. They no longer care. If I don't care, guess what? They don't care, and guess what happens in a community association? You have board of directors who don't care about those three things. Then people who live there don't care about those three things until you raise the assessments. Right? You you now you're creating more money. Now of a sudden, guess what? What do you mean you charge me more money? And that's where it starts at. You know that board of directors there has a fiduciary responsibility to act in the best interest of the association because you have people who live there who don't do that. Now all of a sudden you have institutions to say, guess what? We want to force you to to do those jobs because whenever you don't maintain an association, guess what happens from an insurance point of view? Your rates will go up. If I go into your community association and I do an inspection, because I'm looking at your premium of a you know $30,000, and obviously the tree's not been trimmed correctly, you know I see the gutters have not been taken care of, I see this stop sign there, but this shrubbery growing over the stop sign. I'm going, uh-oh, this is not going to work. So now your $30,000 premium you're paying now 60 or $70,000. Okay, all because you failed to maintain your association.

Robert Nordlund: 8:14

And then of course the the next step is disgruntled homeowners who say,"I've lived here for eight years. The homeowner assessments have been $275 a month. What is the board? What is this board doing crazy now that it's now up to 425? They must be doing something wrong. It's the board's fault. And what I'm finding interesting is that other boards were perhaps at fault, and it's this board, the current board, that is finally doing the right thing, and they're getting heat for it.

Kevin Davis: 8:48

Yes, and what they need to do again, what happens is this, and it's good if the new board decides to do it, because the new board decides to do it. They have some, you know, grace period to come up there and say, "Guess what? This is what we're going to do. The problem, though, is you have that old board has been there forever. They decide that. Well, guess what? We got to start maintaining this building correctly. Okay, and in order to do that, we have to change our assessment from 200 to $400. Guess what? People who live there is going to save. It's your fault because why didn't you do it before? You're stealing the money. We haven't seen any of the documentation, so now all of a sudden, because you haven't managed your association as well as you should have managed it, and now all of a sudden, insurance is coming down on you, and the lenders are saying no. All of a sudden, you're gonna start doing that right job. Now you have a problem because the people over there lack trust. They don't believe you because you haven't done it all along. That lack of trust is one of the key problems when association go from apathetic to caring. So when the unit owners live there and they don't care, and all of a sudden you make that change when you say we need a special assessment, we need more money. Then all of a sudden the trust is out the window because. Never thought about it. They never concerned themselves with the day-to-day operation, but now all of a sudden, that money factor in there is where they say, "Uh-oh, we have a problem. And now all of a sudden, now problem is that they don't go to the "Let's talk about and figure out what it is. It's you're dishonest, you're incompetent. You know, those are the two words that usually you see whenever your assessments start to go up, and you don't have proper documentation, you don't have proper communication. You're not transparent. You know, Kevin, I've got

Robert Nordlund: 10:28

two thoughts going on in my brain. One is it sounds like a parent who's got a high school kid, and they've been doing fine. Let's say getting B's, A's, B's, C's. You know, doing fine, and all of a sudden they're slipping down to seize, and the parents are saying to each other, "Okay, we got to have a curfew, we got to tighten up, and you can't drive more than 10 miles away from our house. You know they're tightening up the rules because they want to enforce better behavior. They want some studying going on. If you want to play on the volleyball team, if you want to run track, you got to get your grades up to a B, not just a C. You know, there's incentives and there's motivation. So I feel like Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, the lenders and the insurance companies are saying, "Oh yeah, there's consequences to this. If you're not behaving, your allowance is going to change. Your freedoms are going to change; those kinds of things. And I wonder if that's a little bit of-I guess that's how I'm feeling that it makes sense. Now, the other thing is the transition. We talked about last week's episode was Helen, a board member, who was recalled for trying to do the right thing. Expenses were where the expenses were. They wanted to levy a special assessment, and the homeowner said no, and she got tossed out. And now this new board that promised no special assessment is facing the need for a special assessment. You slipped it in a couple of times, and this is my my second

thought: 11:55

communication. Is there a way to not solve this problem, but smooth this situation at your association. Is it so much about communication? You know what? What are we at the board facing and doing?

Kevin Davis: 12:10

You gave the perfect example when you have a teenage son, and you say, "Uh oh, we have a problem here. You are a A minus B plus student because if you A plus student, you're always going to be A plus. Yeah. So you're B plus or B minus student, and you start becoming C or C minus. Now you said, okay, now it's time to install discipline. What happens in these community associations is you don't do anything. So once you get that C student and then your C minus students, you put your head in the sand, and now they're a D student, and now it's suddenly a student don't care. That's what happens in community associations. You get into a point where you put your head in the sand instead of taking care of at that moment when they become a C plus student. You say, "Well, they'll get better. They'll get better. Let's hope they get better. And you know, which was never planned. Yeah, exactly. So now they're a D student, and then they don't care anymore. Now they go to school and they don't care anymore. And we all have. I grew up people that I knew that were well, had great friends. My daughter had great friends that all of a sudden, by the time they got in that 12th grade, they didn't care anymore. And what happens is now we have these community associations who don't care anymore. And now that's when insurance says, guess what? We're going to charge you for it. That's when the lender says, guess what, we're not going to loan. And the problem with that is, is that I now of a sudden I want to move into a brand new community association. I did my research and it looks great. Now all of a sudden I find out I can't get a loan. I can't get a loan because guess what? They haven't can't have proper insurance. They have a reserve study. They have the things they should do. All of a sudden, it's my lucky day because I was about to buy into a place that didn't was. It's not. It's not to my standard. It's below my standard. So now I'm walking away. That's the issue. It's not a matter of those students who are C students. A parent came in and says, "No, we don't. That's not acceptable behavior. We want you to go back to where you were before. We understand you're a teenager now, but these are the rules. This is going to abide by. What happened? We allow the C student, the B students becomes D students,

Robert Nordlund: 14:14

and not care. So we're talking about our our board member audience here, and we're trying not to offend them too much. We want to encourage, so I expect that some of you listening are thinking, "Is this me? Or this sounds a little bit like me? Or this is absolutely not like me. Like you said, there's the A students that just do it right and always do it right, and I get that, and that's absolutely wonderful. Now, the good thing about what we're talking about with Fannie and Freddie and the insurance companies. If is if you are doing things well, there's no change. No problem. No problem. If yes, the average association needs to be setting aside. For instance, the average association needs to be setting aside about 25% of their budget towards reserves, and Fannie and Freddie just raised it for condos up from 10. 15% If you're in the 25% range, this means nothing to you because you're already doing it right. And so, we want to say on one hand, everything's changing. The noose is tightening. The parents are implementing tighter controls. But if you're getting A's, if you're doing the right things, it doesn't affect you,

Kevin Davis: 15:21

and that's what we said when we first started. It's like there are associations out there who consistently do what they enforce the rules, collect assessments, right, maintain the property. It hasn't changed. It hasn't changed in the 45 years I've been in this industry. It's the same thing. Now, what has changed is you know the building's gotten older, so they need more maintenance than they did before. Okay, it's gonna be more expensive than it was before, but you have to be more diligent than you were before. You know the people who used to in the past say, "I hope" or"Keep my fingers crossed. Guess what? That doesn't go to work anymore. You want to have to understand that you have introduce your responsibility to act in the best interest of the association. If you do not act in that best interest, guess what happens? But here's the good news, and I think you analyzed it already, Robert. Is that A students will always be A students? You know, so good associations will always be good associations. We're drawing a day. The people were listening right now, and they were smiling because guess what? That's not us. You know, we enforce the rules. We maintain the association. You know, we like assessments. You know, yeah, it's harder now than it was before because guess what? Our building's a lot older now, and we have to do more than we've done before. But we're transparent. We we communicate. You know, we I feel we do pretty good, you know. Helen, who has a mentality, who says that this is what we're going to do for our association. But what happens somewhere along the line? It went from a to a b to a c to the people not caring. It's not the board doesn't care. It's the people who live there who stop caring. The board you can have an a plus board that will always do A plus material, but you have people who live there that doesn't care. But here's the

good news: 17:06

if you have A plus board of directors, the insurance still will look at that A plus board and say, "You know what? Accidents happen. Accidents happen. We're not going to hold you responsible board because of an accident that a once in a lifetime thing happens. We're going to hold you responsible for your lack of maintenance. Okay, we're going to hold you responsible for the things that you should be doing that you're not doing. You know, I'm

Robert Nordlund: 17:30

thinking about what has changed. I got a few more ideas. You talked about the buildings getting older, but I want to bring a couple more to that. But at this point in time, I want to take a quick break and shift us so we can talk more about how we can solve this, how we can deal with this. But at this point in time, let's take now a quick break to hear from one of our generous sponsors. After which, we can be back with more on this discussion, bringing common sense for common areas. Hi,

Kevin Davis: 17:54

I'm Kevin Davis, the president of Kevin Davis Insurance Services. Our experienced team of underwriters will help you when you get that declination. We provide the voice of reason, someone who will stand by you. Our underwriters bring years of knowledge to our clients that can't be automated by technology or driven by price. As a proud NWS company, we bring true value to your community association clients. We are your community association insurance experts,

Robert Nordlund: 18:22

and we're back. Well, Kevin, during the break we were speaking more about this, but talk to me about our conversation. If you're a caliber board, you're trying, you're doing your level best. What is it that happens when the homeowners tend to drift away from you? What what kind of situation do you have there?

Kevin Davis: 18:42

And that's a good point because again, let's go with Helen again. Helen, she has she's an A plus board member, and let's say the rest of the board are A plus. They got recalled because the people who live in that association, in a lot of associations today, we're not civil to one another. We don't we we don't treat each other with respect that we used to treat each other with, and that's where the problem lies in today living in community associations. We live in a 50-50 world, where half the people they're like the other half, you know, because they wear the red hat or the blue hat, whatever it is. And associations are the same way. If you live in one of those associations, okay, you there is you don't you have there's a lack of trust. Okay, you look at that board, that board, and you feel like number one, they don't represent my values. Okay, they don't care about the things I care about. They don't even speak the same language I speak. You know, and not English or anything like that. But they don't speak the same language in terms of you know in terms of smiling, in terms of being kind, or they could be kind and civil, and they don't want that. They they want you know drama. They they want they want to attack their board members out there who deal with people, you know, confront people all the time. That's confrontational. There's other ones that are kind. That type of personality is going to rub people the wrong way. So as board members, again, it's. Your job to look to, especially if you A plus board member. And guess what? People who listen to this podcast are A plus board members because they're there for a reason. They listening to our podcast and going to learn how to manage the association better.

Robert Nordlund: 20:13

Yeah, to get the best tips and absorb things and how to exactly better.

Kevin Davis: 20:17

So now, how does that happen if all of a sudden I'm looking across from them because they don't like the car that I drive, or they like the stickers I have on that, and they automatically don't think. This is where the key to to really understanding how communication transparency is so important. I mean, at the end of the day, there's no two things are more important when you are living in a community association and you happen to be a board of directors, understand the responsibility that you have fiduciary responsibilities that you have to be fully transparent because when they come to you and that you can see in their faces that they don't like the fact that they're not going to like you no matter what because you don't have that red hat on or because you are whatever the reason is, and all of a sudden that's when that transparency comes into play. Guess what, guys? We have a special assessment coming because the balconies need to be repaired. Here's the documentation from the specialist. Here's the documentation from our reserve study specialist that tells us what we need to be done right now. Has nothing to do with the car I drive, nothing to do with the hat I'm wearing. Has to do with the fact that one simple thing, that this is what we need right now, and we need to have a special assessment, and we need to collect this money as fast as possible. And the main reason why this is a problem today, you have older communities out there that has not taken care of themselves the way they should have taken care of themselves. So you got an A plus board in play today that says, "Guess what we're going to do? We want to make sure our association is maintained in the way that people want to come and live here, and the value of our home will increase from point A to point B.

Robert Nordlund: 21:57

It seems like the board members are dealing with visualizing. a bunch of witches around a big pot, and they're stirring the pot. And the pot is full of buildings getting older. There's been COVID, and so people are just more tense. There's more incivility. We've had years of and you would throw in some years of inflation, stir it around, and we've got a stinky stew. And we add to that just the fundamental that community associations are based on the concept that these well-intending volunteers are now fiduciaries. And put someone in charge, you elect them in charge, and all of a sudden they're the authority figure, and a lot of people. Oh, you can add authority figure into the stew, and a lot of people just don't like to be told what's what. They they want to live in their home. They want it to be their castle, and they don't want someone else to tell them that's going up from 475 to 550 per month next year. That's they don't like that. So there's a pretty awful stew in there that the board members are dealing with, and I guess the question is, how do we start to put some salt in there or some baking powder? I'm showing I don't know about cooking baking soda to to reduce the stinkiness or the the vile nature. How can we smooth that out and get it back to this is our community where we are together. We're co-owners in this community. We are maintaining the property. We're collecting the assessments. We're running a clean financial house. The pot is not leaking. The stick that we're stirring it in is not breaking off in the middle of the stew. And what I say: maintaining the property, collecting assessments, enforcing the rules. We are Happy Valley Villas, and we are trying to be Happy Valley Villas. It's us. How can we help this toxic situation to be a more palatable?

Kevin Davis: 23:55

And that's the problem there. You know, especially today when we're looking at these community associations out there who haven't done those things well now want to, and that's where we're at right now. A lot of people out there want to do things well, want to do things better. Now I say is that there has to be a change in attitude with the board of directors. It has to start from the top. If I am anxious and I am concerned, you know, I have these issues that I'm worried about. It's going to impact the where we live again. I said at the beginning, Robert, you and I, business owners, if I'm apathetic, if I don't care, the employee is not going to care. Okay, or even go back to the parent. As a parent, if I'm looking at my my teenage son and he he's not getting the B's. He's getting C's and C minuses. I have a choice. Okay, board members have a choice right now. They can say, guess what? You know, we see our association is going is turning from a B plus into a C minus a C, and we even see it going to a C minus. Let's make. Effective immediately, what are those corrections we need to make in order to have people believe that association is a B association? Again, A and B association will always be A and B associations. When it starts to the when it starts to move down that aisle, then we have to get together as board members saying we need to make the change. We have to make a statement that says, "Guess what? Our association has value. Our association across the street, all our units in our beautiful community associations has increased by 10% 15% over the past five years. But guess what? Our neighbor association has not. So, what is the value of our community association? What do we bring into the table that makes people in our association make them feel good? It's that our value increase. But not only our value increase, but guess what? We have you know celebrations. We care, you know, and that's what association board members have to be able to say to the people who live there that we care. Now they may be apathetic. They may not care. But you know what? There's nobody who listens to Human Association walk up to and say,"Robert, how you doing today? You know. Guess what? We're you know what? Guess what? We've made budget this year. We're not. We don't have to increase the assessments as much as we have done in the past because guess what? Our numbers where they should be. Celebrate the victories. Celebrate those small victories.

Robert Nordlund: 26:24

Yeah, we were fearing a 20% insurance increase. It only went up by eight and a half percent. Eight and a

Kevin Davis: 26:29

half percent. And go back and say the reason why it went up eight and a half percent. Because these are the three things that we did this year. Yes, it costs more money, but at the end of the day, we save money. We now have insurance that guess what? It is cheaper than the association across the street. I go to CAI meetings, the Community Association Institute. I talk to fellow board members, and they're getting 30, 40% rate increase on the insurance, and we're only getting eight to 10% Are we doing that because we care as a community association? And that's the key. Board members got to care.

Robert Nordlund: 27:02

Yeah. Hey, there was a friend of my son's who was looking at condos in my area of town, and was looking at two, and one of them, their insurance went up by $50,000. And I did some digging into that and found out that their association didn't do any fire prevention trimming, and the association that happens to be a client of ours, I checked, and they found out that they spent 10 grand to do the the fire prevention trimming to get a border. And so, yes, this one association spent 10 grand, but the other association's insurance went up by 50 grand for not doing something, and that's the pitch. You need to say yes. It's more expensive, but we're doing the right things. We are maintaining the property. We're enforcing the documents. We are collecting the assessments. That's one of those great situations where spending 10 grand ends up saving you 40,000, and by sitting on your hands.

Kevin Davis: 27:59

And this goes back to our original statement: Insurance companies and lenders are saying, "Guess what? We're going to say no unless you do the things you should be doing. I wanted to buy this association, brand new association. I walk in there, and guess what? The lender said no. That means the person who wanted to sell it means they lost. They they lost a sale, their house, and not only that, nobody will buy that place now. So all of a sudden, Robert, if you're living there and you're ready to sell to downsize and you can't sell, you're not happy with that association board because the board failed to either not maintain it, didn't collect assessments, or didn't enforce the rules. It all goes back to one of those three things or all of those three things.

Robert Nordlund: 28:39

Yeah, a couple years ago, homes were selling for two bedrooms were selling for 500,000, and now they're down to 450 because the lenders and the insurance companies are realizing that our association hasn't been taking care of business. Maybe that's what we're talking about. Yet the walls are moving, but as long as you are taking care of business, then you're ahead of things, and I think the walls are moving with the insurance companies and the lenders primarily to give a kick in the pants to the the D and low C type associations. They want to prevent those associations from having the the freedom to do poorly as they've done in the past.

Kevin Davis: 29:21

Look at car insurance, right? You you get in all the accidents, you get a ticket. What happens through your car insurance? Exactly. So, but look at your face right there. So, what that means? You're very cautious when it comes to driving. You won't get any accidents. You won't get any driving tickets. You know. I remember. You know, you go to the stop sign and used to do the rolling stop. No, you don't do that anymore because I got I got a ticket, and I complained, right? And it was one of those video tickets. I was riding through Beverly Hills, right? I went to a stop sign in Beverly Hills, and I said, "I can't believe I stopped! And they showed me a video of it just riding around there. Didn't even slow down. I'm surprised my car didn't turn over, you know. And but again, it's like I had to go to traffic school because I my. Insurance to go on. Insurance told me I will insure you, Kevin. But you got to do a good job, or else you're going to lose your insurance, or you're going to go from here to here. Board members and community associations-they're saying the same thing. You got to maintain your association. You have to collect that assessment. You got to force the rules, or else guess what? Your insurance will go from $8,000 or 8% increase to a 50 or 60 or 100% increase. That is saying loud and clear. And lenders saying the same thing. I'm not going to loan it if you don't have a reserve study. If you're not reserving properly, and all of a sudden I'm living in a place where I can't sell my unit because guess what? The board breached their fiduciary responsibility because they're not doing those three things they need to do

Robert Nordlund: 30:42

well, Kevin. It's great to have this operator to speak to you. I came here with a little bit of a problem trying to how are we going to wrestle through this topic, and I so appreciate the clarity you bring to it, and just be able to talk through it right in front of our audience here. So, any closing thoughts to add at this time.

Kevin Davis: 31:02

You know what? First of all, play it back together again. Looking forward to future future talks. But this is a this is one of those things that overall we have to remember being board members of community association. The world is changing. The expectations that's placed upon us. But if we break it down and make things simplistic as possible, guess what? We will have an A at B building forever. A students, B students will always be A students and B students. They will always do the right job. Helen is a perfect example of somebody who did the job perfectly, got recalled, and they still deal with the same problem. Helen has a sense of satisfaction because guess what? I did my A job. Board members continue to do what you you should do and do the good best job possible. At the end of the day, you'll be in a better position.

Robert Nordlund: 31:47

Yeah, we've talked in the podcast previous episodes about the 4c's. You need to care about your association. You need to be curious to find out what the problem and the solution are you need to be courageous and implement it, and you need to communicate that to the homeowners. It seems like that's what we're talking about here. So it's it's not hard, but boy, I wish we had a a magic wand so we could give our audience an extra dose of courage because they are dealing with a little bit of a toxic stew here. Well, we hope you learned some HOA insights from our discussion today that helps you bring common sense to your common areas. Thank you for joining us today. We look forward to bringing many more episodes to you week after week after week. We'll be here, and it'll be great to have you join us on a regular basis. Thank you so much. Spread the word.

Announcer: 32:41

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