Rolf Crocker: 0:00

One in four Californians lives in some kind of common interest development. They're not going anywhere. So understanding the dynamic, getting to invest in people, getting to know where they're coming from, all of those will help them. And then trying to find, give them opportunities to serve. If someone was a formerly important person, maybe there's a committee assignment or something else you can plug them into that will give them that sense of worth of satisfaction of hey I'm doing something to contribute and that could very well be the bench depth that you need when a change of the board comes in the future that that's where you can pull from from your leadership.

Announcer: 0:36

HOA Insights is brought to you by five companies

that care about board members: 0:38

Association Insights and Marketplace, Association Reserves, Community Financials, Kevin Davis Insurance Services, and the Inspectors of Election. You'll find links to their website and social media in the show notes.

Julie Adamen: 0:52

Hi, I'm Julie Adamen President of Adamen Inc.

Rolf Crocker: 0:55

And I'm Rolf Crocker with Omni Community Management, and this is HOA Insights, where we promote common sense

Julie Adamen: 1:01

for common areas. Well, welcome to episode 181. Julie here, and as my usual partner in crime, Rolf Crocker is with me, and he is the all-around fantastic HOA management guru of Northern California. No

Rolf Crocker: 1:14

stop, really. It's and

Julie Adamen: 1:16

in fact these United States. So

Rolf Crocker: 1:18

lies and rumors spread by my competitors. I will not stand for that.

Julie Adamen: 1:22

Well, you're sitting for it, so there you are.

Rolf Crocker: 1:23

There you go. Fair enough.

Julie Adamen: 1:25

Today on this episode 181, by the way, episode 181, we're going to talk about something near and dear to people in the management end's heart. However, it also affects board members. So we wanted to make you aware of a particular dynamic that you're actually very familiar with, but you may not exactly know why it happens this way, and maybe will help you get some insights into how to deal with these type of people better. And we are talking about FIPS, F I P S, FIPS, formerly important persons,

Rolf Crocker: 2:00

not to be confused with VIPs,

Julie Adamen: 2:02

VIP. That's right. Very important persons. Well, maybe they used to be a VIP, but now they're a FIP. And you know, if you are one, you may be one. You may be sitting next to one. Don't look at them. But we're going to talk about the FIPs and how they fold into the community association administrator. Well, I'm going to say community association world, our our sphere as managers and management company owners, we know how that works. As a consultant, I see it all the time, and I'm actually running for the board and where I live. So I maybe I'll be a fit. What is

Rolf Crocker: 2:34

wrong with you?

Julie Adamen: 2:35

I know, right? I don't know. I just like a seat at the table. Maybe they won't elect me, and I can go do something else. So don't say that out loud. Anyway, let's take a few minutes to talk about what a FIP actually is. Okay, a formally important person is typically a retiree who used to run things. So they might have been the you know the a colonel, a general. They might have been a CFO or maybe the chief of surgery somewhere. It's these people who used to have a very big job, and now they are just the person who lives across the street. They're the guy in lot 12. You know, it. They are just regular folks now because they've lost that title. They don't have that anymore. However, they kind of still approach a lot of problems as if they were in charge. Now, total

disclaimer here: 3:21

not every retiree is a FIP, and not every FIP is a jerk or a bad person whatsoever. I mean, in fact, Rolf, you said something about FIPS and why there are a lot of them on the boards a lot of times. Why we talked about it earlier. What'd you say?

Rolf Crocker: 3:36

You know, the the term that I've used historically are former captains of industry, people who have been in charge of running things, of making sure things, you know, that the that the that things work well, and they have been in charge of orchestrating and organizing and leading. And when they come into homeowners associations, the natural tendency is for them to just jump right into that mode, not recognizing that if you say are in an association of 100 people, there's 99 other people who may or may not have similar experience, and the challenge becomes the natural tendency just to jump into that mode without recognizing that in a community, you've got folks that are coming from all kinds of different walks of life, various experiences. They could be homemakers, they could be plumbers, they could be teachers, they could be accountants, all of these. But what we were talking about before is that it seems that those who gravitate toward toward board service tend to be people who are used to running things because that's sort of their innate gifting, their own leadership giftings. While this is about how you react to folks who are homeowners, as a board member being on here, again, it may very well fit fit you as well in terms of the the definition of it. So being cognizant that while that is of of huge value, you still have to now make it work within the context of people who really are viewing others as peers and not as superiors versus super.

Julie Adamen: 5:00

Exactly. That's exactly right. And so, and I think Ralph hit the nail on the head with that. Is that because you're so used to if you are a formerly important person and now you're on the board for you board members who don't feel like you're FIPS and you're on the board and you're working with them, I think the thing they bring to the table is again they're used to running things. They don't have a problem typically speaking in front of at least a small group, and oftentimes not even a large group, and the thing that they all need to understand, especially if they're new to the board, and let's say you're on the board already, and one of the new FIPS comes in, the retired general or whatever it is, the retired two-star, three-star general is coming on, and they're just going to be present all of a sudden and take things over, you know. A lot of times, they-it's not that they're trying to. Well, they do jump in with four feet, and it's not like they're trying to run roughshod. It's just their natural tendency to start leading, right? Even if they don't understand how things work, and I think the thing for us in the management end, and for you board members, is to make sure that these folks get some sort of an orientation as to how associations work, because I'm gonna bet that all you board members out there before you got on the board, you didn't really understand how they worked, right? And oftentimes you didn't even like I don't even now you're looking at yourself thinking why did I do this? I mean this is not an easy job in particular. So these folks just need to kind of be brought into the process. Make sure that they know that associations are based on rules, regulations, governing documents, state law, and the policies and procedures that are already in existence. You can't just change them. There's no such thing as an executive order in an HOA. You can't just, with the stroke of a pen, say we're doing it this way. There's a process, and it's a it's actually a legal process and it's a political process and a lot of folks who've been used to being in charge of other people want to get things done. They're like, well, this is just an HOA. Well, yeah, it is just an HOA, but it has its own heartbeat. It has its own process. It has its own methods. And again, they're both legal, practical, and political.

Rolf Crocker: 7:02

Yeah, and to that end, it's not just legal in terms of legislation; it's also your governing documents. So things you think you would normally be able to do in a typical company or or culture, you can't just go in and do that in HOA world. There are rules, rules of the road, if you will, that you need to be familiar with to understand how that dynamic actually works, so you don't find yourself on the wrong end of a lawsuit or something else. And we're going to be talking a little bit more about the things we can do to either embrace or repel, if you will. Yeah, not trying to make our own, make our enemies even more powerful.

Julie Adamen: 7:35

No, exactly. And you know, I think another thing about the the FIPS coming onto the board. Why do they do that? Well, first of all, once you've retired, if you've had a very busy job, and you know you're used to-I mean, I kind of went through the same thing myself about five or six months ago. I thought for sure I was going to end up at least semi-retired in probably a January, February of 2026 because it had been in my particular business, it things have been kind of slow. I had the things I was doing, but not as fast as used to be. And my whole business, just as an aside, is built on relationships. And being at the late 60s, a lot of the people that I worked with all these years have retired out, and they're being replaced by 30 somethings who just have a whole different way of doing things. And so it's a natural process, but I was a little freaked out because I was like, "Oh my God! I mean, this has been my identity for so long. So I empathize with that. So when you go from having your whole identity be a part of what we were doing and what you were doing, and then all of a sudden that identity's gone, the only thing on your calendar is the upcoming board meeting or is an upcoming committee meeting, whatever you're doing. I mean, that thing on the calendar starts to grow big, and then you want to just get in and make sure that you want to be on that committee or be on that board because it's all you got on your calendar when you're used to having a full calendar. I completely empathize with that.

Rolf Crocker: 8:57

Yeah, I think that's it's hard to overstate that when you're, you know, the challenge with being retired, and not this this applies strictly to folks who are retired, of course, but the folks that I know who have done it well are those who are more busy in retirement than they were during their active vocational life, and if you don't have that, then that would be the natural gravitation. Secondly, is it's easy to become frustrated because if you come from a world where you understand how leadership works and how things get done, oftentimes you walk into an HOA and you recognize that there are different levels of people and folks who move into HOAs and folks who serve on HOA boards may not have the same skill set as you do, and if you're used to having things run a certain way, it may become fairly apparent to you, at least in terms of your experience, that this isn't this hasn't been your experience. And sometimes it's easy to assign that as a negative rather than, hey, there's just a different way that they've been doing it here. And understanding what that is in a way where you can, it's sort of like. Verging onto traffic on the freeway, you know. Ideally, you're supposed to go the speed of the existing traffic and use zipper in. But when you see things aren't going the way you're used to having them go, it's easy just to jam on the accelerator or just kind of slam it in there and say,"Okay, this is what we're going to do now. Which you can certainly do that, but the goal here is you need to bring other people along with you, and your ability to do that really has a great deal to do with your ability to be successful in bringing what you want to bring without flipping over tables and essentially, you know, making the situation you know more polarizing than it has to be.

Julie Adamen: 10:36

Those of us who've been in the management end for so long, we see it a lot. I mean, there's at least one on every board. Oftentimes, three, four, sometimes a whole board full. You know, and but the the thing to remember is, if you think you might be a FIP, or if you are dealing with a FIP, is that the thing to for them to understand is working in an HOA or being on the board of an HOA, you're a politician now. I mean, there is no getting around that. You are an advocate for the community. You are, you know, shaking hands and kissing babies. And I know a lot of you don't like that, but I'm being metaphorical, obviously. But I know you don't like have to having to do that. But you do. You know, when someone you're on your way to the mailbox and somebody stops you and wants to talk to you about X, whatever that X is, you kind of need to stop and talk to them about it at least for a few minutes. So that's the political part of this. But Rolf, we talked a little bit. I've got it down here about the shrinking circle, and because this happens to everybody, and you're so good at this, let's talk about the shrinking circle here.

Rolf Crocker: 11:40

Yeah, we can do that. So you sort of have this this wealth of experience that we all have. We go through life, we're learning things, we're growing, and as we're aging out, we we need something, we need some place to put that. But yet, the tendency is for us to continue to try to hold on, if you will, to you know, to that sense of hey, I'm a leader because we find a lot of our self worth in what we do and how we do it, and the successful outcomes that we achieve, right? So as that changes, and especially in HOA world, let me

try to put it this way: 12:14

HOAs just on face are challenging to make work on a good day, you're trying to get 100 people. Say again, just using a round number for for terms of illustration, 100 people to now move into a community with documents they didn't write, with homes they didn't build, with neighbors they didn't choose, and now they're having to figure out how to navigate that space in a way where you have a decent quality of life, and you have some modicum of hope that where you're living is a great place to live, and you're working with your neighbors. You couple that with the fact that we judge others by their actions and ourselves by our intentions. Meaning, you know, if it's my mistake, I didn't mean to do that. But if you made a mistake, we have a narrative attached that you know you were staying up till 2o'clock in the morning trying to figure out some way to anger me when really there's no narrative at all. So there's so much of a sociological dynamic that plays into this, regardless of your experience. That recognizing it and recognizing where you are in that in a way where you're working with other people, you know, that's harder to do once things wind down. And really, in an HOA, everyone has equal ownership. Everyone has equal membership. So there's not a hierarchy. A hierarchy always develops in any sociological situation. But the moment you try to impress that based upon your experience, and and I hate to drop the old, you know, do you know who I am? Do you know what I've done? But for a lot of folks, they see that as a threat, and it's not going to work itself toward an outcome if you don't at least recognize that. And chances are, your skill set is probably far above a lot of folks who are in there. But how you get people to come along with you, trying to get everyone to work together toward the the outcome, which is supposed to be to protect, maintain, and enhance the value of the asset, the individual homes. That's the goal. Recognizing the people dynamic is is everything in terms of how HOAs work.

Julie Adamen: 14:15

It's absolutely everything, and in fact, I've got an article that I've written, and it's going to come out probably next month about the thing we don't teach in our business to people who are coming in as assistant managers or managers if they've never done this before. We typically do not teach the how-to's with the people. So, but on that note, we need to take a quick break and hear from one of our sponsors. So we'll be right back with Rolf Crocker.

Paige Daniels: 14:41

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is true for your association: 14:47

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Julie Adamen: 15:12

And we're back with Ralph Crocker of Omni Communities in from Sacramento, California, and we're talking about FIPS, the formerly important persons that you will find in your community association and as fellow board members. If you're a board member, then you as fellow board members, and you may be the FIP, but we're talking about the other FIPS. So we talked about the need to be able to handle it, but what are some specific tools we can give folks that really that can kind of equip them ideas, tips, and tricks that can help them navigate the space? Navigate the ones who are actually out in the audience,

Rolf Crocker: 15:43

other homeowners.

Julie Adamen: 15:44

Yeah, exactly. Other homeowner. You you mean the FIPs that are other homeowners? FIPs that are other homeowners. Yeah. Okay. Well, first of all, I do want to say

one thing about this: 15:50

is that when you're when you're a board member and you know they're FIPS, they're not on your board, but they're the other homeowners, like Rolf said. You have to remember this as well as what we just talked about before the break, their home is the last kingdom they have. It's the very last kingdom. Their whole world is within the walls of their home, and then you know the larger picture is around the community. So everything is extremely important to them that has to do with it. Now this is what makes HOA management, whether you're on the manager side or the board side, because you're still managing, right? Is that why everything is so sensitive? Is for two reasons in community associations. One, we deal with people's living arrangements, and we deal with their money.

Rolf Crocker: 16:31

Yep.

Julie Adamen: 16:32

So this is the last kingdom: their money, which may be fixed, and their living arrangements, which may be the last home they'll be in before they, you know, head off to live with the kids, or go to assisted living, or pass away. I mean, that's it. So everything within this realm of HOA is the last hoorah for them, and that's how they feel about it. Now they may not be able to articulate it, but if you approach these folks with that kind of mindset, and by the way, you may be one of them, but you may be a busier person. You may belong to several clubs. You may do, you know, you may have a whole different aspect on how you deal with your life than they do. But remember, this is their last spot that they're going to be in their charge of their home, but it's the last time they're going to be in charge of something. That is really a way to start thinking about it. You were going to go somewhere else.

Rolf Crocker: 17:17

Yeah, just so to that you talked about being important. There's this. There's something that Julie and I have taught on over the years. It's from an essay that was developed actually in the 1950s called"Tyranny of the Urgent.

Julie Adamen: 17:27

Yeah. Oh yes, Charles. The

Rolf Crocker: 17:29

difference between urgent and important, and the thing just sort of put it another way of looking at it. The people who are in their last their the home. It's even if it's not their last home, it's the biggest asset that that they generally have in terms of their portfolio and the home values and the assessments that they're paying, all of that means they have a vested interest. So to them, everything is going to be urgent. But the challenge for leaders, for board members, and for managers is to be able to discern the urgent versus the important, because everything is urgent, but not everything is important, but how do you how do you discern between urgency? And you're not trying to take away their sense of urgency because it's easy to be dismissive and say, "Well, you know, if you knew what we're really dealing with, and you'd know that's just that's just stupid.

Julie Adamen: 18:15

Is that your your pool key is not important? Well, it is because I want to use the pool, you know.

Rolf Crocker: 18:19

And we've talked about this before at a previous podcast, but every single board meeting you have is an audition tape to get civic-minded people to serve on your board. And if they see that's how you're treating other homeowners, people who would normally serve, but they see that kind of nonsense going on, they're not going to want to serve. So you need to look at every single board meeting or every board interaction as an opportunity. You're recruiting unless you want to be il presidente for life, which most of us don't want to do. Then you need to recognize that, but you have to be able to discern the urgent from the important. Still giving you know giving acknowledgement of their urgency, but then you've got to take it back and say, okay. As a board, how do we actually? How do we need to walk this out, or is it something we even need to walk out? But how you do that matters.

Julie Adamen: 19:09

It does matter. It does matter. So I think giving just for you all to think about it, and if you feel like you may be a fit, this is good for you to think about as well. Actually, it's good for me because, and I live in a 55 and better community, so and running for the board, so I'm going to have the same kind of issues with the folks who are here as well as myself as time goes on. And I, you know, move on to semi-retirement. I'm still working right now, almost full time, but not quite. So it's if you start thinking that way, you realize why people are the way they are and why they act the way they act. Having that in your head allows you to, I guess I want to say, give people a little more grace, but it also gives you a better idea on where they're coming from. Now, for the practical thing, another. So, what happens with these folks who are out there and they feel like they? Don't really have agency anymore, so they're not really in charge of anything anymore. Even themselves, even at their house, and even how the lawn looks. I mean, they just don't have agency. So you want to give people a sense that they do have some agency, that they do have some say in what goes on. So let's just say your the board's adopted a policy of whatever something a policy B, and this person does not like policy B, and they want to talk to you right now, not tomorrow, right now about it. Don't forget, it's urgent to them. It's only sort of important to you, but it's urgent to them. So I would always say, don't jump at urgency. But I would say, you know, I can't talk to you today, but I can talk to you day after tomorrow. Do you want to meet for coffee at the clubhouse or down at Starbucks or whatever? Or you can come to my home. I don't. You have to judge whether you want to do that or not. But and we can talk this out. And then if you get their full attention, give. They do need some attention. They want the attention, by the way. But you have them right there in front of you. Say, well, we adopted this policy because of, and then you explain it because don't forget, they only see what comes out from the board or in the minutes or what they don't have this six month background that you do on that particular issue, and I would say that that also indicates to me that we're not communicating enough to the homeowners on why certain decisions were made. Now maybe he's the only guy, but if you're getting five or six people asking you about the same thing, you may want to publish something that says, "Here's why we did this. When you are giving them that amount of attention and make it a finite amount and explaining to them why, then they may go away feeling at least heard. Nothing may change, but you've given them the right amount of attention. You've explained what happened, and that's part of your job. I hate to tell you, but

Rolf Crocker: 21:44

it is. Yeah, absolutely. So taking the time, and again, to to the degree you're able to invest that. Now, it's not time is not infinite. Time is finite. You can't give them three plus hours if they still don't understand there are limits to that. But you know what you're trying to do is at least give people the opportunity to understand what the rationale is, and always encouraging folks. Hey, if you want to be a part of the decision-making process, we'd invite you to nominate for you know self-nominate yourself for the board, and and be a part of the conversation. Because what most people don't necessarily understand when they move into an HOA is that really now? You're a trustee. It's a fiduciary responsibility for that which is owned by others, including yourself. So this sort of this it's this dual role, but ultimately the responsibility is to do what's right on behalf of the group as a whole, and not just the little slice of what you see as important, whether it's the amount of assessments or the way the landscaping looks, or the process in which you get a key fob, the policy about parking in the common area-all those things are things you're trying to manage the people, pets, and parking. But you've got to do that within understanding who the dynamic of the people who are living in your community. That is no small feat. Again, it's difficult to do it on a good day when everything is working well, it can be a nightmare if you are inadvertently doing things to actually stir the pot more and not working toward a solution.

Julie Adamen: 23:11

Exactly, it's I couldn't second that any more than that. You know, it's this is an it's an interesting business or industry. For those of you who are board members out there, I'm just going to say thank you, thank you for being a board member. I mean, we could not do it without you, obviously, and you couldn't. Well, some of you couldn't do it without us. But if you're self managed out there, I mean, you are taking on this whole thing. Your association self managed. You're taking on maybe maybe 100 units, and you're doing it all by yourself, so just to bring this full circle, Rolf, why don't you just wrap this up about our FIPS?

Rolf Crocker: 23:47

Well, I think all of us are probably, you know, as Julie said, if we're not a FIP today, we maybe we will probably be FIP at some point. So, not to make this all universal, you know, and hopefully that that's where you want to be with that. So recognizing that, first thing is to get educated, and I'm not getting any residual from this. But if you have not taken Julie Adamant's classes or Board 101 classes, there's a lot of great basic information. So if you have a FIP, even in the community, what's the price point today, Julie, on the on the core classes for boards,

Julie Adamen: 24:23

$75.

Rolf Crocker: 24:24

$75 to move in to to spend, you know, six figures on a house and three figures on assessments monthly. Is it worth it as a homeowner to be able to take a course to get a basic feel for what HOAs are supposed to be? Emphatically, yes, it's worth it to you. So get the information. Most of us can't spell HOA when we move into it. We really didn't know what it was, and usually the first communication is a nasty gram of some kind, and that's our welcome to the homeowners association.

Julie Adamen: 24:53

Welcome. Put your garbage cans in.

Rolf Crocker: 24:55

Well, they should have read the documents. Okay, but if you've ever installed software. You get the EULA, the End User License Agreement. What happens if you don't accept the terms? You don't get the software, and that's how most people move into HOA. So, that having been said, get educated first and foremost. Understand how associations work. Secondly, is understand how your associations work. Get to know the people that live within your association, people have. We all have strengths and weaknesses. We all have successes. We all have failures. We have hopes and dreams. We have hurts, and so well. That's that's more. I just want to live in my house, garage door up, garage door down, and not be bothered. Well, then HOA living is probably not the best place for you because on some level you're going to need to learn to work with others for outcomes. So getting to know people, understanding where they're coming from or why they're acting a certain way, is going to be helpful to you in the long run. It's an investment for the future. And then finally, there was a couple more things on the notes here. Let me just go back.

Julie Adamen: 25:59

Well, we have the world got smaller. We know that someday we'll all be FIPS, and so we're going to all be that way eventually. And so it says serve like it. So meaning how you may how you want to be treated in the future is how you're going is going to reflect how you treat people now as a board member.

Rolf Crocker: 26:15

And most FIPs are just not inherently jerks. That's not. It's usually a misunderstanding, and I can tell you, after almost 40 years of managing professionally, normally the issue somebody's upset about isn't the issue they're upset about. They're upset about an issue that happened three months ago, six months ago, four years ago. Something people will harbor intention in terms of their experiences, and then they will spring it on you when the next issue comes. It can be the straw that breaks, you know, that breaks the back. So understanding that where it's coming from, at least giving people the benefit of the doubt, giving people grace and space to go through it, but then kindly directing them toward, hey, there are better ways to do this in an HOA world, it's collaborative, it's community, and working toward those outcomes that are in the best interest of everybody and not just the self interest of an individual. That's the hardest piece to cross because your home is your castle, right? Until you move into an HOA where everybody else thinks that their home is their castle too, and now you're all up against each other trying to figure this all out. So again, when you say it out loud, you kind of recognize, yeah, this is kind of crazy that we're even doing this. But yet here we are. There are 367,000 homeowners associations across these United States, and in California, where I live, one in four Californians lives in some kind of common interest development. They're not going anywhere. So understanding the dynamic, getting to invest in people, getting to know where they're coming from, all of those will help them. And then trying to find, give them opportunities to serve. If someone was a formerly important person, maybe there's a committee assignment or something else you can plug them into that will give them that sense of worth, of satisfaction. Of hey, I'm doing something to contribute, and that could very well be the bench depth that you need when a change of the board comes in the future. That that's where you can pull from from your leadership.

Julie Adamen: 28:14

Absolutely, yeah. Give them a job.

Rolf Crocker: 28:17

Make them your friend, and love the ones you have because when they disappear, two more will rise in their place,

Julie Adamen: 28:23

and you don't know them, and they're going to have whole other ideas.

Rolf Crocker: 28:26

Better the devils you know sometimes

Julie Adamen: 28:28

than the ones you don't exactly. And on the stat of how many associations, let me blow your mind with this stat: there are four times as many homeowners association board members as there are elected officials at the federal, state, and local level, four times as combined as four times as many. So just wrap your mind around that fact. It is insane. All right, Rolf. Well, with that, I think our time is up and we've got to go. So I want to thank all of you. If you have any questions, well, let's see. I think they may put it at the end of this. It'll be in the show notes. How to get a hold of us if you need to. We just want to say thank you for watching HOA Insights, where we promote that common sense for common areas. Have a great day, everybody.

Announcer: 29:15

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